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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1161
  
| Ohhh, would love to bred my 7 year old daughters mare. Dash for Cash is her grandfather and she is 23 years old. She is worth her weight in gold for my daughter just loves her... She never raced and was never bred but we found out she did barrel race and she knows what to do with an adult... all we knew when I bought her was that she was an old show mare... |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:48 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:37 AM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:34 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 6:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well. Just me I guess.
eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares. Soundness and bleeding might (probably are) also be environmentally caused. I had a bleeder. She didn't have any DFC because she was born before DFC was.  It was around long before DFC and WAS recognized. I was around the track in the 60's. We had bleeders then too and we knew it. The first bleeder that historians knew about was in the early colonial days. He was a TB.
Do you know how genetics works? DFC was sound. DFC was not a bleeder. When you double up on good genes like that, you get a better chance of a horse that is similar to the in/linebred horse because there is more genetic material like his. 
eta: and I do know how genetics work- if you have two healthy children with the same dad (DFC) but different mother, and those two have a child together, there is a chance that the child may not be as healthy as their grandpa. :) So I don't agree with your assumption about doubling up on healthy bloodlines- but I'm not going to call your thought process ridiculous either- it's just your opinion. :)
Edited by trickster j 2014-01-23 2:38 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:50 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:44 AM Shawna? Is that you? 
eta: the mare in my avatar is a daughter of Missin Freckle- I love her! :)
Edited by trickster j 2014-01-23 2:40 PM
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  Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | Interesting post! I have a DFC granddaughter (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/high+double+dash) that I'm looking for a DFC son or grandson to cross her with. Hoping for a little stud of my own. |
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Expert
Posts: 1642
Location: Kansas | I like the one I have so far. Have had her 2 years now. She is expecting a foal out of Cajo http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cajo in May. She is Double First Down Dash which would be Dash For Cash as well. Actually looking at the pedigree, she is double bred Easy Jet too. So several times back to Three Bars.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/takeoff+jessie
The foal will go back to Rocket Wrangler top and bottom (3X's) but far enough back doesn't matter too much.
Edited by wierqh 2014-01-23 3:56 PM
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | trickster j - 2014-01-23 12:31 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:48 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:37 AM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:34 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 6:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well. Just me I guess.
eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares. Soundness and bleeding might (probably are) also be environmentally caused. I had a bleeder. She didn't have any DFC because she was born before DFC was.
Do you know how genetics works? DFC was sound. DFC was not a bleeder. When you double up on good genes like that, you get a better chance of a horse that is similar to the in/linebred horse because there is more genetic material like his.
eta: and I do know how genetics work- if you have two healthy children with the same dad (DFC) but different mother, and those two have a child together, there is a chance that the child may not be as healthy as their grandpa. :) So I don't agree with your assumption about doubling up on healthy bloodlines- but I'm not going to call your thought process ridiculous either- it's just your opinion. :)
Not really just my opinion. Inbreeding and linebreeding is how every single breed of animal within a species is created. The recessives are culled out of the program and the "clean" individuals are kept in the program. Ask anyone that breeds purebred cattle or ??? |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| OregonBR - 2014-01-23 3:04 PM trickster j - 2014-01-23 12:31 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:48 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:37 AM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:34 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 6:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well. Just me I guess.
eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares. Soundness and bleeding might (probably are) also be environmentally caused. I had a bleeder. She didn't have any DFC because she was born before DFC was.
Do you know how genetics works? DFC was sound. DFC was not a bleeder. When you double up on good genes like that, you get a better chance of a horse that is similar to the in/linebred horse because there is more genetic material like his.
eta: and I do know how genetics work- if you have two healthy children with the same dad (DFC) but different mother, and those two have a child together, there is a chance that the child may not be as healthy as their grandpa. :) So I don't agree with your assumption about doubling up on healthy bloodlines- but I'm not going to call your thought process ridiculous either- it's just your opinion. :)
eta: and actually, all I meant to do is answer the OP's question- I gave her my own thoughts and experience. You are also free to give yours. There is no need to spend your day trying to explain to me why my thoughts are wrong because they are not the same as yours- even if you did breed a cool horse, you aren't going to change my opinion, which, btw- is also shared by others, as seen in those who choose to breed to DFC outcross studs along with others I have discussed this very same topic with. :)
Edited by trickster j 2014-01-23 5:14 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I would love to have double bred dash for cash on the papers, but I don't.
We all no there is more bad breeding happening them good breeding. Most people think their 2 year old stud out of less then stellar parents is going to be the next dash ta fame even though the conformation sucks. And we have all heard or seen or even bred our less then stellar mare to the best stud our money can buy to get rid of her flaws.
We have all griped about the over population and people not held accountable for starving or abusing horses.
The reality is there are the back yard breeders, the breeders in it for money and the breeders in it to better the breed, the change starts with ourselves,
And who cares what the neighbour does as long as their stud doesn't get in with my horses breed or injure mine, I am happy.
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | trickster j - 2014-01-23 3:05 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 3:04 PM trickster j - 2014-01-23 12:31 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:48 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:37 AM OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:34 AM trickster j - 2014-01-23 6:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well. Just me I guess.
eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares. Soundness and bleeding might (probably are) also be environmentally caused. I had a bleeder. She didn't have any DFC because she was born before DFC was.
Do you know how genetics works? DFC was sound. DFC was not a bleeder. When you double up on good genes like that, you get a better chance of a horse that is similar to the in/linebred horse because there is more genetic material like his.
eta: and I do know how genetics work- if you have two healthy children with the same dad (DFC) but different mother, and those two have a child together, there is a chance that the child may not be as healthy as their grandpa. :) So I don't agree with your assumption about doubling up on healthy bloodlines- but I'm not going to call your thought process ridiculous either- it's just your opinion. :)
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 Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | It seems that alot of the best horses we've had over the years have been linebred or inbred to some degree and I'm big 'closet' linebred fan. It was done alot more in years past I think because they just didn't have the gene pool to draw on like we do today.
Some of my favorites include:
Leo http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/leo5
(one of his best sons, Croton Oil was out of a linbred mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/croton+oil and Okie Leo was out of a linebred Traveler mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/okie+leo) Thirsty was also out of a double bred Traveler mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thirsty4)
F Guy http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/frenchmans+guy
Sunfrost http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sunfrost
I have in the barn now
Teehaha http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/teehaha
Vienna http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/leo+dun+fox
Rocky http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/polecats+shadow
and this mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pc+sun+sis who will foal out and we'll have this:http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sunny+money4
The outstanding Slim colt that WimpyB bred has the Easy Jet/Pie in the Sky in the same place on the dams side both top and bottom of its pedigree http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/drawsapplause
I kind of find the linebreeding pretty interesting myself.
When I find a bloodline that I like I'll admit that I really shop for the highest percentage or duplicates of that line I can find in it's pedigree.
Edited by teehaha 2014-01-23 9:25 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| OK, so I'm confused- I don't think Teehaha or OregonBR have the same definition for linebreeding that I do- this is mine: Outcrossing vs. Linebreeding
In his classic college textbook, Horses and Horsemanship, Dr. M. E. Ensminger defines outcrossing as "... the mating of animals that are members of the same breed but which show no relationships close up in the pedigree." | SKIPPA STREAK | SKIP HI | SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA | SKIPPER W. | | MISS HELEN | | SKY HI | ADVANTAGE (TB) | | UNKNOWN | | CHEYENNE LIL | PAINT STALLION | UNKNOWN | | UNKNOWN | | THOROUGHBRED MARE | UNKNOWN | | UNKNOWN | Linebreeding, he explains, "... is the mating of animals... usually directed toward keeping the offspring closely related to some highly admired ancestor, such as half-brother and half-sister, female and grandsire, and cousins." | SKIP'S ARTIST | SKIPPA STREAK | SKIP HI | SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA | | SKY HI | | CHEYENNE LIL | PAINT STALLION | | THOROUGHBRED MARE | | SKIP'S AID | SKIP'S LAD | SKIP HI | | SKIP JOY AQHA | | SKIP SATIN | SKIP HI | SATIN NICK AQHA
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eta: I just don't see the linebreeding in Frenchman's Guy, Sunfrost, or any of the other examples you gave me. Can you explain your definition for linebreeding? It's obviously different from mine- and maybe that's why we are not communicating that well-
Edited by trickster j 2014-01-23 9:16 PM
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Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | Well, I never went to college and read that book and could be all wet in where I like to see the same names on what line in a pedigree, but I promise we're putting some nice horses on the ground 
Maybe this will help show where I see the linebreeding in Sunfrost
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chantella
Edited by teehaha 2014-01-23 9:41 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | trickster j - 2014-01-23 7:13 PM OK, so I'm confused- I don't think Teehaha or OregonBR have the same definition for linebreeding that I do- this is mine:
Outcrossing vs. Linebreeding
In his classic college textbook, Horses and Horsemanship, Dr. M. E. Ensminger defines outcrossing as "... the mating of animals that are members of the same breed but which show no relationships close up in the pedigree."
SKIPPA STREAK |
SKIP HI |
SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA |
SKIPPER W. |
MISS HELEN |
SKY HI |
ADVANTAGE (TB) |
UNKNOWN |
CHEYENNE LIL |
PAINT STALLION |
UNKNOWN |
UNKNOWN |
THOROUGHBRED MARE |
UNKNOWN |
UNKNOWN |
Linebreeding, he explains, "... is the mating of animals... usually directed toward keeping the offspring closely related to some highly admired ancestor, such as half-brother and half-sister, female and grandsire, and cousins."
SKIP'S ARTIST |
SKIPPA STREAK |
SKIP HI |
SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA |
SKY HI |
CHEYENNE LIL |
PAINT STALLION |
THOROUGHBRED MARE |
SKIP'S AID |
SKIP'S LAD |
SKIP HI |
SKIP JOY AQHA |
SKIP SATIN |
SKIP HI |
SATIN NICK AQHA
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eta: I just don't see the linebreeding in Frenchman's Guy, Sunfrost, or any of the other examples you gave me. Can you explain your definition for linebreeding? It's obviously different from mine- and maybe that's why we are not communicating that well-
I use the TB definitions.
Inbreeding...the same individual appears in the pedigree in the first 3 generation more than once.
Linebreeding would be the same thing only in the 4th generation or further back. Almost ALL horses have some degree of linebreeding. Some a lot. I usually don't pay too much mind to it if it isn't in the first 6 generations. But I know it's there. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The linebreeding is noted by the colored horse's names. The same color is the same horse. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/frenchmans+guy
Edited by OregonBR 2014-01-23 9:32 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Yes I know that. I see this isn't going anywhere. Apologies to the OP for taking this post completely OT.
eta: OregonBR- why do you use TB definitions - ack nevermind- forget it- carry on-
Edited by trickster j 2014-01-24 8:51 AM
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Folks on-line