cranky B4 10am - 2014-10-31 12:02 PM Sorry, but that is not true.

I know it happens, unfortunatly. But you make is sound like everyone that does dressage does this. I can tell you it is not the norm where I come from.  



I started out in English, did both dressage and jumping for 30+ years, and I believe it helps a lot with the rider's balance and the way a horse carries itself. I always believed dressage is the foundation for all disiplines. But that is MHO.

 edited because I can't spell...

cheryl makofka - 2014-10-31 11:50 AM The horse accepts the aids subtly? Dressage is known to use the crank (don't know the proper terminology) to tighten the nose band so much it can cause permanent damage. I heard this can no longer be used in the show ring, but is still used in the warm up and training.

Just Plain Lucky - 2014-10-31 2:51 PM Barrel racers really, really have no room to talk about other disciplines in a negative light. Can we please clean up our own discipline before we judge another? I'm pretty sure we all know that each discipline has its good and bad, so why continue to perpetuate stereotypes?



ETA: I've frequented a number of other forums (English riding dominated) and the crank noseband is often purchased for the "look" and they never actually use it. Some people use the crank function, of course, but it seems that they don't like it to be too tight. I think the people abusing it are few and far between.



 

cheryl makofka - 2014-10-31 12:50 PMThe horse accepts the aids subtly?Dressage is known to use the crank (don't know the proper terminology) to tighten the nose band so much it can cause permanent damage.I heard this can no longer be used in the show ring, but is still used in the warm up and training.

Bibliafarm - 2014-10-31 6:13 PM

That is why Dressage has levels. so the horse can mature and develop and get strong enough to do these things..  the pyramid allows horse to develop.most of ours are ridden and worked in a 3 piece snaffle.. very soft bits. Even FEI ones school in them..
the things that are asked are within reason of the horses age and ability.. some trainers or riders force as does in BARREL RACING .. gadgets .. but dont lump it together .
some skip the levels . Horse do carry theirself when trained correctly and able to it is whisper in the hands and aids.  charyl I really dont think you have a clue how it feels..when trained correctly.
some are more talented
BUT MOST trainers take it slow and allow horse to develop their muscles and ability . we work each muscle group to make sure they can handle things
..so please dont bash dressage.

Just Plain Lucky - 2014-10-31 12:51 PM Barrel racers really, really have no room to talk about other disciplines in a negative light. Can we please clean up our own discipline before we judge another? I'm pretty sure we all know that each discipline has its good and bad, so why continue to perpetuate stereotypes?



ETA: I've frequented a number of other forums (English riding dominated) and the crank noseband is often purchased for the "look" and they never actually use it. Some people use the crank function, of course, but it seems that they don't like it to be too tight. I think the people abusing it are few and far between.



 

cheryl makofka - 2014-10-31 11:50 AM The horse accepts the aids subtly? Dressage is known to use the crank (don't know the proper terminology) to tighten the nose band so much it can cause permanent damage. I heard this can no longer be used in the show ring, but is still used in the warm up and training.

cavyrunsbarrels - 2014-11-01 6:09 PM

Ok let's educate. As a barrel racer, can you really be pointing out faults in other disciplines? I love barrel racing, but at EVERY barrel race I've been to, there have been riders that are absolutely horrifying to watch. Their position is terrible, their horsemanship sucks, they use big a$$ spurs, bits, tie downs, etc. that they have no business using. Now is every barrel racer like that? No. Just the same as every dressage rider doesn't go around riding their horse in rollkur.

Let's start with crank bridles. You can use them for competition still, and are only abusive if you use them wrong. The crank noseband was invented by a lady who had show cobs, I believe (somewhere in Europe). She designed it so that it could be tightened more than a regular noseband for her stallion(s) who were/was quite strong. It did catch on in dressage, however not all riders use them in an aggressive way. Most use them simply because a few years back they became a fad and suddenly every bridle maker was making them almost exclusively. To find a dressage bridle with a regular cavesson was suddenly a challenge. They only way in which they are different than a regular cavesson is the buckle strap doubles back on its self and is padded. I rode in one fitted like any other cavesson and it is in no way cruel.
 
Now dressage is French for "training" it IS the foundation of ALL riding. It has become popular on the international stage recently to ride horses overbent, hollow backed, and with hind end trailing behind. It is truly a shame that judges are rewarding this cruel and icorrect riding. But ask any REAL dressage master and they will tell you what dressage is really about. A properly trained dressage horse is light (you do not push the horse into the bridle constantly by any means) and responsive. They are fit and strong, so are able to learn to use their bodies correctly (on the bit, back rounded, powering from the hind end) so do not need constant holding and pushing.
Going back to the "pushing the horse into the bridle". Let's not forget that dressage horses are ridden in very different bits. They are expected to work on a light contact, pretty much at all times, but they are ridden in very gentle snaffles. The very mention of a leverage bit or twisted mouthpiece on a dressage forum will leave you chased off with torches and pitchforks. Starting at 3rd or 4th level then you start to use a double bridle, but the curb is only a secondary tool. For example, I'll attach a picture of my old trainer's daughter riding a piaffe in a Grand Prix test. Look how loose her curb rein is. Leverage is not relied upon like it is for many barrel horses' bits.
Dressage is not perfect by any means, but I dare you to claim that any sport doesn't have questionable methods, especially at the higher levels. One must be able to see the difference between real dressage and "modern" dressage. They're both out there, and if you actually pay attention, you will learn that there is nothing on this earth better to teach horse and rider to work together in true partnership as well as develop their physical and mental skills.

ETA: Attached are 2 pics of horses in piaffe. The first one has been trained properly and has a good rider (I know her personally and how they train their horses, they are very good). The second one is just the opposite. Contrary to what some people think, the latter is not super super common.


 

cavyrunsbarrels - 2014-11-01 6:09 PM

Ok let's educate. As a barrel racer, can you really be pointing out faults in other disciplines? I love barrel racing, but at EVERY barrel race I've been to, there have been riders that are absolutely horrifying to watch. Their position is terrible, their horsemanship sucks, they use big a$$ spurs, bits, tie downs, etc. that they have no business using. Now is every barrel racer like that? No. Just the same as every dressage rider doesn't go around riding their horse in rollkur.

Let's start with crank bridles. You can use them for competition still, and are only abusive if you use them wrong. The crank noseband was invented by a lady who had show cobs, I believe (somewhere in Europe). She designed it so that it could be tightened more than a regular noseband for her stallion(s) who were/was quite strong. It did catch on in dressage, however not all riders use them in an aggressive way. Most use them simply because a few years back they became a fad and suddenly every bridle maker was making them almost exclusively. To find a dressage bridle with a regular cavesson was suddenly a challenge. They only way in which they are different than a regular cavesson is the buckle strap doubles back on its self and is padded. I rode in one fitted like any other cavesson and it is in no way cruel.
 
Now dressage is French for "training" it IS the foundation of ALL riding. It has become popular on the international stage recently to ride horses overbent, hollow backed, and with hind end trailing behind. It is truly a shame that judges are rewarding this cruel and icorrect riding. But ask any REAL dressage master and they will tell you what dressage is really about. A properly trained dressage horse is light (you do not push the horse into the bridle constantly by any means) and responsive. They are fit and strong, so are able to learn to use their bodies correctly (on the bit, back rounded, powering from the hind end) so do not need constant holding and pushing.
Going back to the "pushing the horse into the bridle". Let's not forget that dressage horses are ridden in very different bits. They are expected to work on a light contact, pretty much at all times, but they are ridden in very gentle snaffles. The very mention of a leverage bit or twisted mouthpiece on a dressage forum will leave you chased off with torches and pitchforks. Starting at 3rd or 4th level then you start to use a double bridle, but the curb is only a secondary tool. For example, I'll attach a picture of my old trainer's daughter riding a piaffe in a Grand Prix test. Look how loose her curb rein is. Leverage is not relied upon like it is for many barrel horses' bits.
Dressage is not perfect by any means, but I dare you to claim that any sport doesn't have questionable methods, especially at the higher levels. One must be able to see the difference between real dressage and "modern" dressage. They're both out there, and if you actually pay attention, you will learn that there is nothing on this earth better to teach horse and rider to work together in true partnership as well as develop their physical and mental skills.

ETA: Attached are 2 pics of horses in piaffe. The first one has been trained properly and has a good rider (I know her personally and how they train their horses, they are very good). The second one is just the opposite. Contrary to what some people think, the latter is not super super common.


 

cavyrunsbarrels - 2014-11-01 7:09 PM

Ok let's educate. As a barrel racer, can you really be pointing out faults in other disciplines? I love barrel racing, but at EVERY barrel race I've been to, there have been riders that are absolutely horrifying to watch. Their position is terrible, their horsemanship sucks, they use big a$$ spurs, bits, tie downs, etc. that they have no business using. Now is every barrel racer like that? No. Just the same as every dressage rider doesn't go around riding their horse in rollkur.

Let's start with crank bridles. You can use them for competition still, and are only abusive if you use them wrong. The crank noseband was invented by a lady who had show cobs, I believe (somewhere in Europe). She designed it so that it could be tightened more than a regular noseband for her stallion(s) who were/was quite strong. It did catch on in dressage, however not all riders use them in an aggressive way. Most use them simply because a few years back they became a fad and suddenly every bridle maker was making them almost exclusively. To find a dressage bridle with a regular cavesson was suddenly a challenge. They only way in which they are different than a regular cavesson is the buckle strap doubles back on its self and is padded. I rode in one fitted like any other cavesson and it is in no way cruel.
 
Now dressage is French for "training" it IS the foundation of ALL riding. It has become popular on the international stage recently to ride horses overbent, hollow backed, and with hind end trailing behind. It is truly a shame that judges are rewarding this cruel and icorrect riding. But ask any REAL dressage master and they will tell you what dressage is really about. A properly trained dressage horse is light (you do not push the horse into the bridle constantly by any means) and responsive. They are fit and strong, so are able to learn to use their bodies correctly (on the bit, back rounded, powering from the hind end) so do not need constant holding and pushing.
Going back to the "pushing the horse into the bridle". Let's not forget that dressage horses are ridden in very different bits. They are expected to work on a light contact, pretty much at all times, but they are ridden in very gentle snaffles. The very mention of a leverage bit or twisted mouthpiece on a dressage forum will leave you chased off with torches and pitchforks. Starting at 3rd or 4th level then you start to use a double bridle, but the curb is only a secondary tool. For example, I'll attach a picture of my old trainer's daughter riding a piaffe in a Grand Prix test. Look how loose her curb rein is. Leverage is not relied upon like it is for many barrel horses' bits.
Dressage is not perfect by any means, but I dare you to claim that any sport doesn't have questionable methods, especially at the higher levels. One must be able to see the difference between real dressage and "modern" dressage. They're both out there, and if you actually pay attention, you will learn that there is nothing on this earth better to teach horse and rider to work together in true partnership as well as develop their physical and mental skills.

ETA: Attached are 2 pics of horses in piaffe. The first one has been trained properly and has a good rider (I know her personally and how they train their horses, they are very good). The second one is just the opposite. Contrary to what some people think, the latter is not super super common.