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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
 
Location: Moving soon..... | I was hauling to QH shows a lot back in the 80's when the classes here in Texas were always a 6-point class. The WP classess were also huge and the same thing was happening then as it is now. It would be talked about how the WP horses needed to move in a normal or natural fashion, but, never happened. The trainers would tie their horses up in the corner of their stalls all day so that they would drag their noses for the class the next day. I was at a show in Seguin one year and we went around and untied all that we could. It will never change.
Edited by Karol 2014-11-21 12:28 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 232
Location: Winging It in KY | MC1993 - 2014-11-21 12:52 PM cuckleburr - 2014-11-21 12:27 PM smmthbr - 2014-11-21 11:21 AM Agree - I can't help but add my 2cents worth. I have enjoyed showing Wstrn Plsr horses of multiple breeds, but can't stand to even watch the current AQHA, Paint, Appaloosa wstrn plsr horses...my opinion....it's called TRAINER JOB SECURITY. Most of the time, only trainers have the dubious talent to get those horses moving so poorly....I'm hoping that most Amateurs don't know how to get them moving that bad nor do they want to. It's not always the judges fault - if that's all that is presented to them...that's what they have to judge. In any case, it's unnatural and surely not a PLEASURE for anyone: the riders, the horses, the spectators. I predict that it won't be long before the Ranch Pleasure horses start moving like that as well. Arghhh...Good reason to be a barrel racer.
Well, stopped in TN to watch the AQHA Novice Championships and unfortunately the WP was before the Barrels. What we saw was ridiculous, to say the least. The amateur novice and youth novice just stood around while their trainers yanked, jerked, snatched and spurred the horses into shape. When it came time for the class, the youth or amateur rider jumped on the horse in their thousand dollar outfits and rode in the class. When it was over, if they made the finals, the trainer was back on while the rider just stood there and watched. This to me is just ridiculous. These are supposed to be novice riders. What is the point? And as said before by others, the horses just look crippled and so unhappy. So yes, the amateurs are learning how to make them move this way. And this doesn't happen in the barrel horse world? Or the HUS world? or the jumper world? Its everywhere....not making it right but it is!!!
I'm sure it does, but until the judges make changes in the way they place horses, it is going to keep happening in the WP and HUS world. |
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Veteran
Posts: 238
| SaraJean - 2014-11-21 11:17 AM
As someone who has competed in pleasure & a lot of other disciplines these threads always get under my skin. There is NO dicipline out there where the horses compete "naturally" they are all taken to an extreme because that is what wins. Reiners don't naturally slide 15+ feet or spin as fast as they possibly can, cutters don't naturally work a cow the way they do, pleasure horses don't naturally go so extremely slow, barrel horses don't naturally turn a barrel at a dead run......In each discipline the genetics are very specialized & the horses DO naturally have the charicteristics & conformational traits that allow them to do what they do. I've seen the baby pleasure horses lope across the pasture at the speed of a snail, it IS what they do. But I've been in enough training/show barns that I've seen what goes on behind the scenes in many of them. I've seen enough reiners & cutters with their faces & sides tore up to make a person sick. Trust me pleasure is not the only dicispine with ugly training techniques. I've also been in the barn of some of the top appaloosa pleasure horses in the country. And I can say first hand that the horses in that partucular barn are treated like royalty. Bottom line is competition takes everything to an extreme & in the end the horses pay the price in every dicipline.
Amen |
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 Ima Non Controversial Girl
Posts: 4168
Location: where the wind blows | Agreed, its got to start with aqha and the judges. I did watch one whole western pleasure class at a show last spring. That's all I could stomach watching. There were 8 horses in the class. 6 looked dead lame. One was super slow but at least didn't look dead lame. One horse moved like a horse and looked sound. I would have excused the 6 horses if I were judging, placed the normal mover first and the slower one second. Well the normal mover was last and the slow mover second last and I walked away and stayed away from the arena until the reining and ranch pleasure started.
I do agrees with Sarah jean that any of the disciplines we ask are not really normal but a bit extreme. However I would venture to say a large majority of the cutters, reiners, barrel horses, etc could head out for a trail ride in the bush or manage to chase a cow or two across a pasture if they were asked. No way would I want to ride one of those western pleasure horses anywhere. I have always thought of quarter horses as being able to do many different events. That has changed drastically and I don't think it has been for the good. I just know I can watch a cutting class, reining, loving the new ranch pleasure. I even like watching heavey horse hitches, etc. but I cannot stomach watching western pleasure or halter. And I know there are MANY that feel the same. I still say AQHA needs a shake up. |
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
 
Location: Alberta | I never enjoyed watching the pleasure classes BUT my perspective has changed on the horses....my husband bought a new ranch horse and he has cow sense up the wazoo and he's ALL pleasure bred, top and bottom and LOOKS the part (bccanchaser knows lol) , he travels with low head set and is flatter kneed verses his other horse who is cowbred.........I've showed in the Paint Horse circuit and also fully understand the judges and politics of it all...... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 980
Location: Southwest Minnesota | I have a friend who is an AQHA judge. She said that they are retesting all the judges and pulling cards...I didn't ask but am wondering if this is why... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| We had a AQHA judge be a clinician at a 4h camp around here, and it drove her crazy that I had an all around horse. She said, "All that does is confuse them, and they aren't good for anything". Let see, I won grand champion halter, showmanship, Equitation, HUS and Barrels that weekend. She's sure confused alright. She placed 3rd in WP because she actually moved like a horse, she lost to two four beaters. It is quite funny seeing the judges faces as that mare could move beautifully in HUS (not like the WP HUS) and haul butt on the barrel pattern 5 minutes later (don't try it the other way around, doesn't go as good). LOL
It was also quite funny when the judge figured out she wasn't even a QH, Solid Paints FTW. Why are they such a difficult concept? haha |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I have to agree that a lot of techniques used in training WP horses are used in barrel horses. Ive seen my fair share of barrel trainers tie their horses up in stalls overnight. Ive seen bloody mouths, bloody sides, etc. It happens in every discipline.
What bothers me about WP is that the horses the move naturally don't place. Horses that still have a lower/level headset and slow gates are overlooked. A friend of mine just got a steal of a deal on an older WP paint gelding. He is as steady as the day is lone and a truly wonderful horse but he'll never place high in a big class because he just doesn't move how they want. I think hes beautiful to watch and I actually enjoy watching wp classes he's in. He will place but hes not gonna every "win." I think that's why she got him for next to nothing.
Breeding does have something to do with it. My gelding is bred for HUS and you can see it from a mile away. However, the loping to the inside almost skipping along is not how they're suppose to move... and ive seen many in my life... none of them move that way naturally. |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | MS2011 - 2014-11-20 4:30 PM It's awful... I HATE it!! Their attempt at huntseat sucks as well. Those people would get laughed out of a real 'AHSA' show.
HAHAAHA. I LOVE this. Toes pointed down, reins miles too long, no contact with the bit, slumped forward and akward posting. THAT ISN'T RIGHT. It makes me want to explode everytime I watch an english class!
Shorten your stirrups
Make contact with the bit
Sit up straight
and put your dang heels down
THEN we'll talk about how your horse looks like a western horse with english tack. It makes my skin crawl!
And this is with just about every-single-rider! I love comparing what judges place and what the standing AQHA guidlines are for what they are supposed to be placing! there are some people that are showing WP that are really giving me hope. Its got to start from the bottom and work its way up to change it! when EVERYONE starts changing their horses to a more natural gait the judges will have no choice but to alter their placings. I think everyone forgot that it was named "Western Pleasure" because it's supposed to be a pleasure to ride. It may be easy but that hardly looks pleasurable to ride. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Crowned Image - 2014-11-24 7:19 AM MS2011 - 2014-11-20 4:30 PM It's awful... I HATE it!! Their attempt at huntseat sucks as well. Those people would get laughed out of a real 'AHSA' show. HAHAAHA. I LOVE this. Toes pointed down, reins miles too long, no contact with the bit, slumped forward and akward posting. THAT ISN'T RIGHT. It makes me want to explode everytime I watch an english class!
Shorten your stirrups
Make contact with the bit
Sit up straight
and put your dang heels down
THEN we'll talk about how your horse looks like a western horse with english tack. It makes my skin crawl!
And this is with just about every-single-rider! I love comparing what judges place and what the standing AQHA guidlines are for what they are supposed to be placing! there are some people that are showing WP that are really giving me hope. Its got to start from the bottom and work its way up to change it! when EVERYONE starts changing their horses to a more natural gait the judges will have no choice but to alter their placings. I think everyone forgot that it was named "Western Pleasure" because it's supposed to be a pleasure to ride. It may be easy but that hardly looks pleasurable to ride.
It's laughable. If they would set up 2 or 3 line that were 3'- 3'6" and you had to jump...then the horses would change. (but I seriously doubt any of the riders can go over more than a 2' fence...) A small pony (under 12.2) jumps a 2' course, stick some actual fences up there and force them to show horses that are properly framed and athletic. I cannot watch their hunter under saddle crap because it makes me crazy. |
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  Color My World
Posts: 4940
Location: My perfect world bubble | Just remember - there are plenty of WP, HUS, Reiners, etc. who are probably saying similar things about barrel horses and barrel racers. I show in eventing now - most of my eventer friends are shocked to learn that I used to ride barrel horses and yet I actually know how to ride. I have a very good friend who shows APHA and yes - those horses are bred to move slow, just like barrel horses are bred to run and turn, eventers are bred to run and jump. I've heard all kinds of criticisms about barrel racers and barrel horses and unfortunately I've been in situations where I've seen exactly what they are talking about and couldn't defend it. Good and bad in every discipline - makes it nice that there are enough events for everyone to find something they like. |
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Location: Great Places Great Faces | I heard this amazing talk at a Sunday morning church service once... It was a travel preacher who talked to us about that he had been at a mule show the week before and when it came time for the barrel racing he said all the contestants who were all males took out wipes and spurs... He then posed the question to the crowd ( of all barrel racers ) " where did they learn that?" ... All disciplines have dirty little secrets, be careful not to judge is all I'm saying... |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | MS2011 - 2014-11-24 8:44 AM Crowned Image - 2014-11-24 7:19 AM MS2011 - 2014-11-20 4:30 PM It's awful... I HATE it!! Their attempt at huntseat sucks as well. Those people would get laughed out of a real 'AHSA' show. HAHAAHA. I LOVE this. Toes pointed down, reins miles too long, no contact with the bit, slumped forward and akward posting. THAT ISN'T RIGHT. It makes me want to explode everytime I watch an english class!
Shorten your stirrups
Make contact with the bit
Sit up straight
and put your dang heels down
THEN we'll talk about how your horse looks like a western horse with english tack. It makes my skin crawl!
And this is with just about every-single-rider! I love comparing what judges place and what the standing AQHA guidlines are for what they are supposed to be placing! there are some people that are showing WP that are really giving me hope. Its got to start from the bottom and work its way up to change it! when EVERYONE starts changing their horses to a more natural gait the judges will have no choice but to alter their placings. I think everyone forgot that it was named "Western Pleasure" because it's supposed to be a pleasure to ride. It may be easy but that hardly looks pleasurable to ride.
I personally have watched AQHA's version of a hunter o/f class and I was really not impressed. The horses, while they were beautiful movers, were nothing like USEF style Hunters I grew up training under. However, I think AQHA's fences only go to 3'6" or something like that (correct me if I'm wrong, someone). Every horse I watched traveled on it's forehand. It's just not my cup of tea.
Also, the piano hands. OMG. My trainer would have slapped me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | So the hunters fences are 3'3"-3'6"
Jumpers are 3'6" to 4'
I have never watched a jumpers round at AQHA, so I'd bet that's more like the style of USEF showing (as it is not judged, it's a timed event) |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | MS2011 - 2014-11-24 7:44 AM Crowned Image - 2014-11-24 7:19 AM MS2011 - 2014-11-20 4:30 PM It's awful... I HATE it!! Their attempt at huntseat sucks as well. Those people would get laughed out of a real 'AHSA' show. HAHAAHA. I LOVE this. Toes pointed down, reins miles too long, no contact with the bit, slumped forward and akward posting. THAT ISN'T RIGHT. It makes me want to explode everytime I watch an english class!
Shorten your stirrups
Make contact with the bit
Sit up straight
and put your dang heels down
THEN we'll talk about how your horse looks like a western horse with english tack. It makes my skin crawl!
And this is with just about every-single-rider! I love comparing what judges place and what the standing AQHA guidlines are for what they are supposed to be placing! there are some people that are showing WP that are really giving me hope. Its got to start from the bottom and work its way up to change it! when EVERYONE starts changing their horses to a more natural gait the judges will have no choice but to alter their placings. I think everyone forgot that it was named "Western Pleasure" because it's supposed to be a pleasure to ride. It may be easy but that hardly looks pleasurable to ride.
That riding won't even place you in the nov am classes here in WY. I'm shocked it will anywhere. The riders are actually very good. Perfect position and seat, heels down etc to get you in the top 3 in a 10 person class. The horses however often have all arounders in it (wp, trail, horsemanship) so they do not have the rein contact and long reach of a true HUS horse. All things considered the best mover still wins around here, and if they are the same top 2, I guarantee the taller one will take top honors. HUS has become all about the size. 16.2 and under are short. |
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