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 Veteran
Posts: 227
 
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | I have a hot, high headed, pushy off the track mare that has a problem with dropping her shoulder, when turning a barrel or when just trotting a circle. I have been riding her in a twisted wire d ring snaffle for about 8 months now. At the beginning she seemed to be making lots of improvements in the snaffle, but lately we have been fighting every time I ride her. I can't get her to drop her head in the snaffle, and if I do she will also drop her shoulder. I go to fix the shoulder and she speeds up and raises her head and pushes on the bit. I rode her in a draw bit just to try it one day, and she was so well behaved. Her head stayed down, shoulder up, it was great.
HOWEVER
I have been told that every horse should be able to do everything in a snaffle and riding her in a draw bit is not helping her because it will create more problems, as it doesn't solve our issues just side steps around them. I want to do what is absolute best to make this horse the best possible, I just want to understand why I am doing it.
So, my question is, why is it so important for my horse to be able to do everything in a snaffle? What will fighting through all of this to get her to work in a snaffle help her do? Will it eventually make her lighter? And make her stop shouldering? What exactly will the snaffle help? I don't know a whole lot about bits and I really want to learn!
Thanks! |
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 Unknown Drip
Posts: 5624
 
Location: Back in MT BABY!!! | Different people like different bits for different reasons. I also think bits are highly personal....one person will LOVE one bit and another will think it's a hunk of junk! I personally send my horses off to get started under the saddle 30 to 45 days which ever they need. I ask my guy at this time to get them into a shank once I get them back I don't ride anything in a ring or D snaffle. That being said I do have two horses that I run in a draw bit. Do what works for your hands, your horse and you. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I used to think your way too, but then I spoke with some of the best bit makers.
If a horse is left in an oring snaffle too long they will start bracing on the bit and actually use it for balance.
A draw gag will actually get the horse off the front end and onto the hind end.
Different mouthpieces can be severe ie twist is more severe the more twist it has
If you can myler has bit clinics that are amazing, so does Dave Elliott and les Vogt has some on YouTube see if you can go to clinics or atleast watch: learn from the pros |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | If the snaffle bit does not fit your hands & this horse it is doing you absolutely no good & likely causing more problems. I'm not a big draw bit person, I'll use one for a few rides if I need to but that's about it. I have been starting colts for the better part of the last 15 years, some I keep in a snaffle for quite a while others I get out of it pretty quickly. Every horse is an individual & should be treated as such. |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Heart of Texas | I think the saying is more like don't use training aids as a permanent means. Your horse should be able to work correctly on a basic bit without the use of training aids in the long run. But training aids are nice to help your horse to learn what you are trying to teach or correct bad behavior. But imo draw bits, draw reins, headsetters, etc should not be used as permanent solution. |
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | The bit is not the problem. She needs to move off your leg more to que her to stay under herself more. |
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Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | The bit is not the problem. She needs to move off your leg more to que her to stay under herself more. |
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Veteran
Posts: 294
| Get that hip in and she won't drop. Correct the hip and you should be good. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | A bit is only as good as the person using it. I find it especially with english riders, they will tear you a new one if you mention using a bit other than a snaffle. They go on and on about how any well trained horse should be able to do ANYTHING in a snaffle and that bigger/stronger bits are covering up bad training or lack of skill on the riders part, yadda yadda....until they get a horse that needs a pelham. But that's OK.
A horse should be started in a snaffle, and should learn the basics in a snaffle. Many horses do great in a snaffle for their whole life (nothing bad will come from using a snaffle, as I said before, most english horses are ridden their whole lives in snaffles and do fantastic). But once the horse has the basics down, it is ok to change to another bit. Snaffles are great, but you have to take into account the amount of finesse you want/need, the horse's personality and comfort, and the activity you're doing. If your horse likes the draw gag, then I don't see a problem there. It's also not set in stone that you HAVE to use that bit all the time. You can use a snaffle periodically in addition to the draw gag or whatever bit you're using. |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | I do need to work on getting her hip under her. She came off the track and was never really trained, she was just put in a tie down and put on a barrel pattern. She has made leaps and bounds of improvement with the sniffle. I just feel like we have hit a wall with it. Every time I try to get her hip in, her head goes up and she gets really stiff on me.
I just don't want to end up ruining my horse because I am taking the easy way out using a bit other than a snaffle! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| If she is riding good in the draw gag, work her in it for a while, then maybe go to a jr cow horse or back to a loose ring snaffle, depending on her sensitivity. I change bits all the time, because my horse will fight it if I keep him in a bit too long. |
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 Expert
Posts: 5290
| I always love how people think its a right of passage to move a horse out of a snaffle. I was always taught, the lighter the better. Dont just keep increasing in bits. lol ALL of my finished horses run and win in snaffles for the most part. One runs in a short shank slide with Snaffle mouth. Still a VERY LIGHT bit. lol And mine are all off the track. |
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Expert
Posts: 2121
Location: The Great Northwest | Horse normally off the track are not broke enough to start on barrels. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| FLITASTIC - 2015-03-10 8:34 AM
I always love how people think its a right of passage to move a horse out of a snaffle. I was always taught, the lighter the better. Dont just keep increasing in bits. lol ALL of my finished horses run and win in snaffles for the most part. One runs in a short shank slide with Snaffle mouth. Still a VERY LIGHT bit. lol And mine are all off the track.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that runs mostly in snaffle :0 I always wonder about it ! I had a 4 yr old that you would of thought needed more bit... But never took her out of the smooth mouth snaffle , just got her more broke & it's amazing the change ! She's so light to any amount if pressure now & will move her body any way you want it ! I believe the body control is the biggest factor ... It takes months to get them where you want them .. But it is worth the effort ! |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | My mare had a bit of a bad start before I got her. She was taken off the track and started running barrels way too soon, so she was quite blown up when I first got her. I would love to be able to make her soft and get her to work in a snaffle. I just don't know a whole lot about bits so I was curious what the differences were between the snaffle and the draw bit and how they would affect my horse differently and what types of horses people use them for. I know in the draw bit she keeps head down a lot better and feels like she braces on me less, in the snaffle when she wants to go or I ask her to do something she isn't confident about her head will go up and she will brace on me quite a bit. Like I said she has come leaps and bounds working in the snaffle I was just wondering what everyones opinions were on the different bits and if I should keep fighting through our struggles with using a snaffle or if it would be of use to us to change it up every once in a while and work her in a bit that she works, for the most part, quite a bit nicer and quieter in. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | They only brace on a snaffle if the rider gives them something to brace on.. move the horses hind end and they get light in front .. finesse, supple and half halts.. keeps horse from bracing.. just for info on snaffles.. not saying one way or another.. I prefer 3 piece snaffle and yes we school all the way up to grandprix in them.. we do use double as well its required in competitions.. but we ride the snaffle 90% of the time.of course there are a few hardheads out there that need a lil more if they dont have the foundation we prefer.. heavy etc.. we will use more bit until we get them off their front and on to hind.. but then revert back to snaffle.. but play around and see what works for you.. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | I imagine she is more comfortable in the draw bit (also called a gag) because that's what she's been ridden in. One of the reasons she's also probably not letting her head get so high is because the draw bit puts pressure on her poll (the area right behind her ears). Every time you put contact pressure on the reins you are not only getting contact with the sides of her mouth (bars) and tongue but also the top of her head. A snaffle doesn't act on the poll, only the bars and tongue (unless it has a curb strap and then it also works under the chin as well). With pressure on the top of her head, yes, she's more likely to drop it. Getting her to drop her head is not necessarily the answer to getting her collected though. A lot of people think a dropped head means they are collected and working well. That's not actually always the case. She's probably dropping her head and hollowing out her back. You want a horse that carries themselves well and gets their feet up under them, one with a somewhat rounded back. Getting their feet and mind moving, getting them to RELAX into your riding, is probably most important at this point. You can probably accomplish that in any bit. You might try a snaffle that had a slight gag action, something that would pull just very slightly on the top of her head (since she seems more comfortable with this type of pressure already). If you get the right type, you can actually just change where your reins are sitting and use the gag action sometimes or just the snaffle others. Myler has some great bit choices for this. The key right now is to get your horse to relax when you ride her and go back to basics. I'd be doing much more in the way of trotting and seeing if you can work her into using herself better at the trot. The biggest thing is GO BACK TO BASICS. The better foundation she has the better she will run barrels. It sounds like she doesn't have much of one right now.
I had a really similar misunderstanding about head position and true collection (engaging the hind end) at one point too. I've done a lot of reading and watching videos. I know I can see it in other horses but I still some times have a harder time feeling it perfectly with my own horses. Also, because I'm still working on feel for this I depend on someone else's eyes to help me know when they are using themselves well. Sometimes I feel it great; sometimes I need my husband to tell me. Get some help. A trainer goes a long way in this. And maybe you could consider having a trainer spend 30-90 days on her to help her with this foundation. It's perfectly reasonable to admit our limitations and get some help. You also tend to learn a ton from the trainer.
ETA: If you went with a Myler bit, cheekpiece number 20, and a french link type mouthpiece (looks like snaffle mouth #10). You'd get the right sort of effect and be able to switch back and forth. http://mylerbitsusa.com/onetes3.html
Edited by oija 2015-03-11 6:28 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Here are a couple links to help.
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-perform...
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-perform... |
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Veteran
Posts: 160
| (I'm referring to a Loomis-type gag in this post)
I much prefer even STARTING a young horse in a sliding gag over an o-ring. A sliding gag is not more or less severe than an o-ring, it just has a completely different action. The sliding action essentially causes the horse to pull on itself instead of pulling on your hands. If I have learned one thing training horses, it's that they will never learn a lesson as well as one that they "teach them self." By that I mean, that by starting in a sliding gag and the horse pulling against itself, they teach themselves not to lean on the bit and to be soft and supple because they don't have to wait on our hands to release the pressure, the draw action allows for the pressure to release the second the horse gives. I honestly believe that a draw gag is lighter, more gentle/functional bit than a ring snaffle. I'm a firm believer in them and think that your horse would benefit greatly from a sliding gag. Fighting her in an o-ring is much more detrimental than using a different bit that she's comfortable in. Plus, it's not a huge step by any means from a snaffle to a draw gag. Neither are leverage bits, both come in a variety of mouthpieces. I say go for it and do what works for you and your horse. Until someone else is feeding it and paying its bills, their opinion is take-it-or-leave-it. (Mine included!  ) |
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