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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
  
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
 
Location: Texas | wyoming barrel racer - 2015-03-18 10:31 PM
I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel.Â
It's detomidine gel, and I still don't think a lay dentist can legally administer it to horses he is working on. Yes, a vet can RX it to you to use for stuff… but he can't sell it to a dentist to use on clients. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM
I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion.
I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it.
I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry.
My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry
1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice.
2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks.
3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far.
I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations..
I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off.
You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession.
I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore.
I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market.
There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones.
I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school…but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
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 Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | I can definitely see your side of the debate Casualdust. I am picky about who touches my horses and Canchasr1 goes above and beyond in her dentistry. She has studied so hard and passed the board tests. I have no doubt she would recommend our vet to take a look at anything she sees out of the ordinary as we use the same vet. I can't stress enough how meticulous she is on every single one of the horses she works on. She has done 10 of mine in one day and it took all day because she takes her time and goes over everything with you.
Did I say how great Canchasr1 is at equine dentistry?! 
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Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 10:48 PM Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion. I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it. I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry. My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry 1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice. 2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks. 3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far. I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations.. I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off. You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession. I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore. I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market. There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones. I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school… but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
This part scares me! I sure hope they are going to do "dogs and cats"! Yikes  | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Kaycee - 2015-03-18 10:06 PM I can definitely see your side of the debate Casualdust. I am picky about who touches my horses and Canchasr1 goes above and beyond in her dentistry. She has studied so hard and passed the board tests. I have no doubt she would recommend our vet to take a look at anything she sees out of the ordinary as we use the same vet. I can't stress enough how meticulous she is on every single one of the horses she works on. She has done 10 of mine in one day and it took all day because she takes her time and goes over everything with you.
Did I say how great Canchasr1 is at equine dentistry?!
10 a day?? Holy cats! | |
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Member
Posts: 15
| Kaycee - 2015-03-18 11:07 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 10:48 PM Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion. I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it. I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry. My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry 1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice. 2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks. 3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far. I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations.. I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off. You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession. I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore. I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market. There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones. I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school… but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
Me too! I'm glad we have a BB in school that wants to work on horses for sure :)
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | I have used both vet and equine dentist with good results.. I've been lucky I suppose. I dont have a preference for hand tools or power tools I've seen both used - and have had good results with both. What I will add though is that - like anything there are good and bad techniques - and so whether it be a vet or a certified equine dentist I think you will find there are always going to be good and bad from both. Just be careful who you choose - if they mess up or do something you dont like dont be afraid to not call them again - it is your horse - you are the horses advocate and you are the one paying the bill! When I get mine done I am that nosey owner who is standing right beside them watching every single thing and asking questions... heck if im paying em basically 150 for an hours worth of work or less usually - at least i can get a show out of it lol.. and ask a lot of questions! I had always used a vet for mine but then moved and went to a new vet who he strictly has an equine dentist that comes once or twice a month to service his practice - and so its vet "supervised" but the vet has so much trust in him he really just lets him work at his facility and provides the tranquilizers... but the equine dentist has really impressed me with his knowledge and care. Haven't had any issues w/using him thankfully and have learned a lot even. | |
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Regular
Posts: 98
| i would rather get my horses teeth done by an equine dentist not by a vet because they specialize in this just like farriers specialize with their hooves | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-03-18 8:31 PM
I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel.Â
I feel your pain on the shots IV. I had a vet out ( Not my regular) and my horse needed sedation. After the 3rd try on the vein I finally yanked that needle out of the vets hands and told her to hold my horse. I hit the vein first try! | |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I can't speak from experience, I've only ever had 2 vets do my horse's teeth...I used the vet at our local clinic for many, many years, and when he retired I started taking them to a bigger vet clinic up north. They have a couple of vets that mainly just do dental work.
There is another guy who is not a vet that a lot of people I know have used with no problems as well. I really think it just depends.
I will say that as far as vets go, I won't let just any vet do their teeth. I think all vets have something they're good at or kind of specialize in, and I didn't feel comfortable letting any of the other vets at my local clinic do it. I know they know how to float teeth but I also know they don't do it very often. | |
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Badonkadonk
Posts: 4189
Location: Mississippi | I use an equine dentist. That is ALL he does. It is what he specializes in. I've had more vets mess up horses mouths than dentists so I only use my dentist. I also don't use different dentist just the one. He goes all over and comes to my house to do mine. As far as problems giving sedations...those same problems can happen at a vet clinic. To each their own. | |
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| My experiences with vets doing my horses teeth has been poor at best. They are meant to preform dentistry on horses that are pasture pets IMO. I do agree with whoever stated they were missing a large market! I have been exteremly impressed with horse dentists that do performance horse dentistry. As far as them giving your horse an iv, that is sketch to me. And if they couldn't hit the vein Id probably just end up doing it myself, or if neither one of you could hit the vein Id say "never mind". Honestly if they can't hit the vein they probably haven't done enough horses teeth to be any good at it. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| Brittany - 2015-03-19 10:34 AM I use an equine dentist. That is ALL he does. It is what he specializes in. I've had more vets mess up horses mouths than dentists so I only use my dentist. I also don't use different dentist just the one. He goes all over and comes to my house to do mine. As far as problems giving sedations...those same problems can happen at a vet clinic. To each their own.
I think the argument against this is that IF there is an issue with the sedation at a vet clinic, there are far more resources available to take care of the horse and minimize the complications. Personally, I believe it really depends on the individual. There are vets who are great at dentistry, and vets who are terrible at it. There are also dentists out there who are great at their jobs and those that are terrible. | |
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