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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 393
 
| I tried to read all the posts but I didn't see anything about Ulcers and Oats.
I have heard/read the higher starch in the oats is bad for ulcers.
Does anyone have any experience with ulcers and oats?? Has anyone feed them to horses with ulcers? Or horses prone to ulcers? | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Oats, alfalfa, grass hay, a couple hours on grass pasture and Cur-Ost Stomach and Adapt are what am I feeding my horse that has ulcers. I have had several vets tell me that oats feed correctly are not going to cause ulcers. I am feeding 2 cups of oats, 2 cups of Omni alfalfa/oat/flax cubes in the morning with his supplements and 5lbs of the Omni cubes in the evening. He is doing 100% better since I have put him on this regimen. I will not change his feed to anything else and all my horses are on the Omni cubes now. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | I personally do not feed oats to any right now... BUT i wouldn't be scared to in moderation either.. like the previous poster i think if you are feeding more than just oats.. its not sitting in the stomach by itself creating an environment of starch overload.. esp if you feed alfalfa - that is going to help balance it... but i wouldn't feed a whole big scoop of oats at once and add just some alfalfa either.. but a couple measuring cups is prob fine.. it'll add some energy to em.. and a lot of the BIG name cutters and reiners swear on oats and alfalfa diets.. these are people who have million dollar horses.. sooo it works for some.. some horses may be more sensitive to the starch though - so i'd just watch how they react.. see if its what you are looking for.. personally it makes one of my geldings a raving loon.. even with just a little oats.. but being an unprocessed feed source it isn't the worst thing in the world if they can handle it and if its balanced with other sources of nutrition as well. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | I have been following this thread with interest from the start. It seems that there are two schools of thought going here. One side says oats are great, the other oat are bad. The reality of feeding oats lies somewhere in between. As stated earlier, oats have a higher fiber content than other grains, and that can provide a little more flexibility in how they can be fed. Starch availability compared to corn in particular depends on the quality of the oats, its' form, and that of the corn. We can bounce the numbers around all day to make a comparison of the two, but the bottom line is this. Any grain that is fed in a form or feed rate that prevents the vast majority of its NSC from being utilized before it reaches the cecum becomes a potential negative influence to the proper function of the hind gut and utilization of the roughage portion of the horses diet.
I often use oats in diets that I recommend. Low inclusions, at levels that can be digested higher in the system can provide a safe energy source. Compared to commercial processed grain based feeds, you can basically look at oats and know what you are getting. One to two pounds of oats per day, broken into two or three feedings will not disrupt an otherwise properly functioning digestive system. Higher amounts, fed at one feeding, run the risk of overwhelming the amylase enzyme that would normally cause effective digestion in the small intestine with the result being a hind gut ph change.
I have written about this before, and I am sure most of this is not new news to most. The thing that most do not realize is how management of the feeding program and the overall horses health and mouth condition can and do change an otherwise good diet. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| SassyPirate - 2015-09-25 11:42 AM
I tried to read all the posts but I didn't see anything about Ulcers and Oats.
I have heard/read the higher starch in the oats is bad for ulcers.
Does anyone have any experience with ulcers and oats?? Has anyone feed them to horses with ulcers? Or horses prone to ulcers?
This used to be the thinking but not anymore.
Google succeed...it is made from oat flour and oat oil. Apparently oats are proving to be a valuable tool in helping heal hind gut ulcers. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | astreakinchic - 2015-09-25 12:40 PM
SassyPirate - 2015-09-25 11:42 AM
I tried to read all the posts but I didn't see anything about Ulcers and Oats.
I have heard/read the higher starch in the oats is bad for ulcers.
Does anyone have any experience with ulcers and oats?? Has anyone feed them to horses with ulcers? Or horses prone to ulcers?
This used to be the thinking but not anymore.
Google succeed...it is made from oat flour and oat oil. Apparently oats are proving to be a valuable tool in helping heal hind gut ulcers.
I would not count on oats to help with ulcers. It would be a bit of a stretch to compare a supplement that has some oats as an ingredient and is fed at a rate of several ounces to a diet that may include pounds of oats.
The answer to ulcers is pretty straight forward. First, cure the ulcers. Second, modify the management of the horses health to avoid the irritation that begins the process of forming ulcers. The first is up to your vet. The second is modifying the diet to avoid an unnatural level of acidity on an empty stomach or in the hind gut. This is done by having a roughage source available as constantly as possible, having teeth properly done to allow for comfortable complete chewing that in turn produces much more buffering saliva, and eliminating excess grains inclusions. For most, not all but most, this system will eliminate the occurrence of ulcers that are generated due to diet.
Edited by winwillows 2015-09-25 1:06 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| winwillows - 2015-09-25 2:05 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-09-25 12:40 PM
SassyPirate - 2015-09-25 11:42 AM
I tried to read all the posts but I didn't see anything about Ulcers and Oats.
I have heard/read the higher starch in the oats is bad for ulcers.
Does anyone have any experience with ulcers and oats?? Has anyone feed them to horses with ulcers? Or horses prone to ulcers?
This used to be the thinking but not anymore.
Google succeed...it is made from oat flour and oat oil. Apparently oats are proving to be a valuable tool in helping heal hind gut ulcers.
I would not count on oats to help with ulcers. It would be a bit of a stretch to compare a supplement that has some oats as an ingredient and is fed at a rate of several ounces to a diet that may include pounds of oats.
The answer to ulcers is pretty straight forward. First, cure the ulcers. Second, modify the management of the horses health to avoid the irritation that begins the process of forming ulcers. The first is up to your vet. The second is modifying the diet to avoid an unnatural level of acidity on an empty stomach or in the hind gut. This is done by having a roughage source available as constantly as possible, having teeth properly done to allow for comfortable complete chewing that in turn produces much more buffering saliva, and eliminating excess grains inclusions. For most, not all but most, this system will eliminate the occurrence of ulcers that are generated due to diet.
Your correct its a stretch but the change i've seen in mine and others are making me believe.
I've talked to experts currently doing studies (nothing published) that are theorizing oats, of course fed with smart management, are starting to show effectiveness at helping prevent ulceration. But that can be argued that the smart management is helping more than anything.
I think smart management is the biggest key but I've seen a major difference since switching from commercial to oats as far as ulcer symptoms and overall health go...BTW your feed is not available in my area. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Of all the discussion of oats, I don't think I have seen anyone directly claim that oats help ulcers. The common thought is that oats are bad for ulcers, along with all other grains. However, I think what has been discovered is that a low inclusion of oats, will not inflame or cause ulcers, especially when fed in combination with highly digestible fiber sources, especially alfalfa. At the same time, this feeding philosophy allows the reduction of commercially mixed concentrates that may be contributing to the rising number of horses suffering from ulcers.
Personally I have come to love a low inclusion of oats in a horses diet. To say they are some where in between great and poor, I personally feel might be a little misleading. Used properly and with the correct other feedstuffs, oats are indeed great, in the context of how they can be useful in an equine diet. As an example, fed in two feedings of 1-2lbs each daily along with alfalfa, they are "great" for balancing the diet and adding needed starch for quick muscle response in athletic competition horses. Conversely, fed at 15 lbs a day with 10lbs of grass hay, I think we could all agree they are "bad".
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-25 4:14 PM
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Any grain fed in excess will contribute to ulcers, especially processed feeds. Horses are herbivores and intended to eat forages and other naturally occuring things in the wild. I do feed whole oats but only use them as a medium in which to add my Cur-OST, not for adding nutritional value to my program. I feed about one pound of whole oats once daily and rely on alfalfa and grass to provide my horses everything else they need.
No, feeding oats isn't the cure all to getting rid of ulcers. That being said, I do feel it's a much better alternative than processed feeds with all of the synthetic ingredients added, as those synthetics are major contributors to inflammation in the digestive tract and, in turn, other areas of the body, which is likely why those feeding oats or barley or other whole grains are seeing some improvement with ulcers and other inflammatory issues.
I think there is some misconception of oats causing ulcers or keeping ulcers at bay. The key here is minimal oats and more hay, grass, etc.
Edited by Herbie 2015-09-25 4:03 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | One thing that some may find interesting:
A couple of times while testing Omnis Complete Performance, we took the horses off Omnis and back to the same level of 100% alfalfa cubes. Each time, we found less energy for hard anaerobic work and a slight loss of weight in heavy training. To test the effectiveness of the oat component in Omnis, we added a few pounds of heavy oats to the alfalfa cube diet. We saw a return of body weight and energy during intense work. BUT.....we saw an increase of excess energy and loss of focus, especially at the beginning of the training session. The traditional hot reputation that oats have.
"On Omnis, they did not have the tendency to become hot."
We have concluded and can explain this phenomenon this way: Because alfalfa cubes are eaten slowly and calmly, and because the oat inclusion is mixed throughout the ration, the RATE at which oats were consumed, digested, and absorbed into the bloodstream were drastically reduced. This allowed the low amount of oats not only to be completely safe, but Omnis also eliminated the behavioral affects, that oats can cause; while at the same time, increasing performance during intense work, balancing the alfalfa diet, and providing natural calories in the ration.
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-25 4:27 PM
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Tdove - 2015-09-25 4:03 PM One thing that some may find interesting: A couple of times while testing Omnis Complete Performance, we took the horses off Omnis and back to the same level of 100% alfalfa cubes. Each time, we found less energy for hard anaerobic work and a slight loss of weight in heavy training. To test the effectiveness of the oat component in Omnis, we added a few pounds of heavy oats to the alfalfa cube diet. We saw a return of body weight and energy during intense work. BUT.....we saw an increase of excess energy and loss of focus, especially at the beginning of the training session. The traditional hot reputation that oats have. "On Omnis, they did not have the tendency to become hot." We have concluded and can explain this phenomenon this way: Because alfalfa cubes are eaten slowly and calmly, and because the oat inclusion is mixed throughout the ration, the RATE at which oats were consumed, digested, and absorbed into the bloodstream were drastically reduced. This allowed the low amount of oats not only to be completely safe, but Omnis also eliminated the behavioral affects, that oats can cause; while at the same time, increasing performance during intense work, balancing the alfalfa diet, and providing natural calories in the ration.
Any of you can follow me on FB and watch the videos of my daughter's mares that she's running right now. They're both cutting bred and Hotbox is only 13.3, yet she's able to clock in the 1D and be competitive in rodeos. She's strong, healthy, shiny, focused, and not hot in any way. We have not fed her any sort of mixed grain in a few months now and she's not on any supplements. When she was still on a concentrated feed we struggled with soreness issues and her recovery time after a run was longer. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | While some may look at this thread and think that there is some disagreement going on. I think everyone is making the same point, but in a different way. Using oats in the diet can be beneficial when used for the right reason and at a level that the horse can use without disrupting normal digestive function. There are so many ways oats can work in the diet, Tdoves cubes for example, and also ways they should never be used, like large inclusions at one feeding. I personally think that oats are not the answer to ulcers for the reasons I stated above. At lower than 1 1/2 pounds per feeding I prefer oats to any least cost formulated processed feeds. Feeding them in a blended cube would be better yet. As you all know, I look to another alternative when more focused energy or condition is needed, but still like the alfalfa / oat cube in that situation. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Tdove - 2015-09-25 4:52 PM
Of all the discussion of oats, I don't think I have seen anyone directly claim that oats help ulcers. The common thought is that oats are bad for ulcers, along with all other grains. However, I think what has been discovered is that a low inclusion of oats, will not inflame or cause ulcers, especially when fed in combination with highly digestible fiber sources, especially alfalfa. At the same time, this feeding philosophy allows the reduction of commercially mixed concentrates that may be contributing to the rising number of horses suffering from ulcers.
Personally I have come to love a low inclusion of oats in a horses diet. To say they are some where in between great and poor, I personally feel might be a little misleading. Used properly and with the correct other feedstuffs, oats are indeed great, in the context of how they can be useful in an equine diet. As an example, fed in two feedings of 1-2lbs each daily along with alfalfa, they are "great" for balancing the diet and adding needed starch for quick muscle response in athletic competition horses. Conversely, fed at 15 lbs a day with 10lbs of grass hay, I think we could all agree they are "bad".
best explanation yet 
what in the heck are ppl doing with their horses that get over 1-2lbs of oats a day anyway?
They either have a horrible whole somewhere in their management causing poor condition, they are endurance riders (which is a whole different can or worms), or they are creating a ready to founder hippo. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Tdove - 2015-09-25 4:03 PM One thing that some may find interesting:
A couple of times while testing Omnis Complete Performance, we took the horses off Omnis and back to the same level of 100% alfalfa cubes. Each time, we found less energy for hard anaerobic work and a slight loss of weight in heavy training. To test the effectiveness of the oat component in Omnis, we added a few pounds of heavy oats to the alfalfa cube diet. We saw a return of body weight and energy during intense work. BUT.....we saw an increase of excess energy and loss of focus, especially at the beginning of the training session. The traditional hot reputation that oats have.
"On Omnis, they did not have the tendency to become hot."
We have concluded and can explain this phenomenon this way: Because alfalfa cubes are eaten slowly and calmly, and because the oat inclusion is mixed throughout the ration, the RATE at which oats were consumed, digested, and absorbed into the bloodstream were drastically reduced. This allowed the low amount of oats not only to be completely safe, but Omnis also eliminated the behavioral affects, that oats can cause; while at the same time, increasing performance during intense work, balancing the alfalfa diet, and providing natural calories in the ration.
Can we just, like, force TSC or something to carry your omnis cubes? Ugh it's not fair I wish they were distributed up here. | |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| OregonBR - 2015-09-23 3:46 PM Tdove - 2015-09-23 12:32 PM I don't know what to say. I have given you the information. If that is your experience, great. You quoted from the article. 45% prececal digestibility for "ground" corn is still less than half. Whole oats are still much higher. And grinding corn is much different than cracked or rolled corn. From the other article: "With other grains such as barley, corn, and wheat, the use of a processing method such as dry rolling or crimping does not result in significant improvements in nutrient utilization. In order to improve starch availability in corn, Meyer et al.(1993) suggests that grinding or the addition of heat are effective in increasing starch digestion prececally while only cracking the grain does not." Do you feed ground corn? Unless you feed in a pellet, then you probably don't. Mathmatics simply do not support your claim. For 2lbs of your mix to equal 4lb of whole oats, digestible energy would have to be double that of whole oats. That is simply not mathematically possible. Oats typically contain 1.3Mcal/lb while corn has 1.6Mcal/lb. Meaning corn is only 25% more energy dense lb for lb. Your mix, even with rolling, would be less. This is just the facts. I certainly not telling you what you are feeding is bad and I am not advocating you switch to whole oats. I like whole oats. If you would like to feed your mix, then definitely that is what you should do. I'm not arguing with you anymore. If I said the sky is blue, you'd say it wasn't. I've fed the way I feed for DECADES. The only time I've switched in the last decade have been to try feeding whole oats briefly. I had to up what I was feeding by 2x and they still lost weight. The other time I switched to processed feeds and I got 2 colic surgeries for my trouble. I don't care what you feed.
I too hate oats...they are not a good feed for the $$. I took some fancy graduate equine nutrition classes at Texas A&M and am not stupid in regard to nutrition. I do line the Omnis cubes in theory, but the fact is I can get good quailty alfalfa for less than half of the price of the cubes. Due to the fact that we have some outside horses here whose owners like the cubes, we are feeding some. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Thank you for allowing your clients to feed Omnis. I certainly understand that there are many ways to feed a horse satisfactory and even well. Personal preference has a lot to do with the right feed program for the individual.
Often times I am tasked with helping people understand that comparing Omnis to baled hay, especially large bales, is more than even apples to oranges. Omnis is much more digestible and includes energy and expensive value added ingredients. It replaces baled hay and grain while doing so with less total ration needed and provides time and labor savings, as well. The only way to compare it is to takes total amount fed plus associated costs of two separate feed programs, making sure to compare wholesale to wholesale or retail to retail (whichever is the case).
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-27 8:20 PM
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