WrapSnap - 2015-10-21 11:11 PM I have to say, I feel as though many of the people who are saying that we don't see as many injections in the English disciplines were obviously not either in upper level programs, or "in the know" as to what was going on. There really isn't so much of a difference in the level and/or types of maintenance that the English horses get versus the barrel horses. If you have actual experience in both arenas, you'll get what I'm saying. You can go to any local, schooling type hunter show and watch a bunch of lesson horses packing a kid around the Short Stirrup Hunter class who's stifles are obviously shot. Maybe they have a bit of an uneven stride in the trot while hacking. Those same type horses are being loped through with little Susie at your local barrel race, being whipped on in an attempt to win the 4D in the Youth. The difference is that in the Hunter world, little Susie's trainers say nothing about the unsoundness, nor bring up joint injections. In the barrel racing world, little Susie's mom, who has never ridden a horse is her trainer and she is sitting on the fence screaming at Susie to whip harder. Susie's mom then gets on an online forum, maybe posts a video and 1,000 "internet vets" say they think that Susie's horse Spot looks very sore and that she should have his hocks checked. While Dressage horses are often dealt with quite differently, I can guarantee you that the top show Hunters, Jumpers and 3 Day Event horses become very good friends with their vets. Not only that, how many of you have ever been to say the Winter Equestrian Festival, in Wellington, FL. Take a walk through someone's barn (only if invited, of course) and take a peek in the feed room while you're at it. That big wipe board, that's the med list. I promise you that pretty much every horse in the barn is going to be on it. Those horses get more needles than most of the horses at the NFR. It only stands to reason. We'll say that while at a multi week show, a good Hunter is showing 3 or 4 days a week. That sucker is going to be on a longe line, cantering around for at least an hour and more likely two or three before each day of showing. That sort of wear and tear on one's body dictates that they are going to be sore. I can also tell you from personal experience that the 3 Day Event crowd are worse than barrel racers when it comes to injections. Those horses are truly the iron horses of Equestrian sport. Not only do they almost have to be a Dressage horse, they have to be adept at jumping a 1.20 meter show jump course and they have to be fit enough to gallop a cross country course, up and down terrain. Until recently, the Dressage phase of an Event was something that one "Must do in order to get to the fun part". Due to this, many riders never truly learned how to do it well. The horses were flatted in a very false manner, their heads pulled to their chests, completely lacking in engagement and very hollow through their spine. This led to the fact that many were having their SI injected. There was a time when in that world, you heard people telling others to get their horses SI done as frequently as we hear barrel racers discussing hocks. I do believe that too many people are not educated enough about joint injections. I also feel as though even fewer are properly educated about good quality leg care and conditioning. Why do leg work during the week to keep one sound when they can just go get their horse injected every six months? Most of those folks have no idea what their horse is being injected with, don't know what the joint looked like, nor know if the joint was dry, full of fluid, if the fluid was gritty/bloody. All they know is that their horse got his hocks done so he should win the barrel race this weekend. This again, I attribute to a lack of education. It scares me that even quite a few professionals, who are out winning big stuff, have no clue what to do for a horse beyond take it to the vet and say "It's not turning. Fix it!". All of this being said, I will be the first to inject one if they need it. I don't play games with my horse's joint health. If one tells me that they're having an issue, it gets addressed. If injecting it along with the other care that it receives is the best route to take at the time, that's what I'll do. If one really needs time off, I'll give them as much time as they need. I think that people overreact to young horses being injected . A lot of people tend to believe that once you inject, you will always have to inject. I feel that this was almost proven to be true for a long time. In my mind, the reason for that is because a horse with an issue would be left and run on that bad joint until it got to the point that it crippled up. The owner finally took it to the vet, the horse was injected, came sound and started performing again. Six months later, the horse started exhibiting signs of pain again. Back to the vet, new set of injections and viola! The thing that people must realize is that due to their negligence in not having addressed the issue sooner, irreparable damage was done. As a result, yes your horse does now require bi-annual injections. This is the fault of the negligent owner, not the injection.

RnRJack - 2015-10-22 1:24 AM I grew up in the English world, I had a trainer that would literally drug every horse that was somewhat hot when he had someone coming out to try them out for sale. I never said anything nor did I mention it to him as I hacked all his horses out and got free lessons for it. I knew it was wrong but I still kept my mouth shut. I have also seen barrel racers do it to "take the edge off". Problem is, when my old English trainer gave to much Ace to my best friends thoroughbred he just happened to pull his shoulder really bad that same day and had to take an 8 month break! Now whether the Ace aided in the injury or not I can say, either way it wasn't right what he was doing. I've seen more dishonest things go on in my hunter jumper barn then in the barrel racing world, the only difference is that the English people didn't brag about it. Either way, I would agree with Andy that both disciplines inject just as often.

WrapSnap - 2015-10-22 9:11 PM

I have to say, I feel as though many of the people who are saying that we don't see as many injections in the English disciplines were obviously not either in upper level programs, or "in the know" as to what was going on.

There really isn't so much of a difference in the level and/or types of maintenance that the English horses get versus the barrel horses. If you have actual experience in both arenas, you'll get what I'm saying. You can go to any local, schooling type hunter show and watch a bunch of lesson horses packing a kid around the Short Stirrup Hunter class who's stifles are obviously shot. Maybe they have a bit of an uneven stride in the trot while hacking. Those same type horses are being loped through with little Susie at your local barrel race, being whipped on in an attempt to win the 4D in the Youth. The difference is that in the Hunter world, little Susie's trainers say nothing about the unsoundness, nor bring up joint injections. In the barrel racing world, little Susie's mom, who has never ridden a horse is her trainer and she is sitting on the fence screaming at Susie to whip harder. Susie's mom then gets on an online forum, maybe posts a video and 1,000 "internet vets" say they think that Susie's horse Spot looks very sore and that she should have his hocks checked.

While Dressage horses are often dealt with quite differently, I can guarantee you that the top show Hunters, Jumpers and 3 Day Event horses become very good friends with their vets. Not only that, how many of you have ever been to say the Winter Equestrian Festival, in Wellington, FL. Take a walk through someone's barn (only if invited, of course) and take a peek in the feed room while you're at it. That big wipe board, that's the med list. I promise you that pretty much every horse in the barn is going to be on it. Those horses get more needles than most of the horses at the NFR. It only stands to reason. We'll say that while at a multi week show, a good Hunter is showing 3 or 4 days a week. That sucker is going to be on a longe line, cantering around for at least an hour and more likely two or three before each day of showing. That sort of wear and tear on one's body dictates that they are going to be sore.

I can also tell you from personal experience that the 3 Day Event crowd are worse than barrel racers when it comes to injections. Those horses are truly the iron horses of Equestrian sport. Not only do they almost have to be a Dressage horse, they have to be adept at jumping a 1.20 meter show jump course and they have to be fit enough to gallop a cross country course, up and down terrain. Until recently, the Dressage phase of an Event was something that one "Must do in order to get to the fun part". Due to this, many riders never truly learned how to do it well. The horses were flatted in a very false manner, their heads pulled to their chests, completely lacking in engagement and very hollow through their spine. This led to the fact that many were having their SI injected. There was a time when in that world, you heard people telling others to get their horses SI done as frequently as we hear barrel racers discussing hocks.

I do believe that too many people are not educated enough about joint injections. I also feel as though even fewer are properly educated about good quality leg care and conditioning. Why do leg work during the week to keep one sound when they can just go get their horse injected every six months? Most of those folks have no idea what their horse is being injected with, don't know what the joint looked like, nor know if the joint was dry, full of fluid, if the fluid was gritty/bloody. All they know is that their horse got his hocks done so he should win the barrel race this weekend. This again, I attribute to a lack of education. It scares me that even quite a few professionals, who are out winning big stuff, have no clue what to do for a horse beyond take it to the vet and say "It's not turning. Fix it!".

All of this being said, I will be the first to inject one if they need it. I don't play games with my horse's joint health. If one tells me that they're having an issue, it gets addressed. If injecting it along with the other care that it receives is the best route to take at the time, that's what I'll do. If one really needs time off, I'll give them as much time as they need. I think that people overreact to young horses being injected . A lot of people tend to believe that once you inject, you will always have to inject. I feel that this was almost proven to be true for a long time. In my mind, the reason for that is because a horse with an issue would be left and run on that bad joint until it got to the point that it crippled up. The owner finally took it to the vet, the horse was injected, came sound and started performing again. Six months later, the horse started exhibiting signs of pain again. Back to the vet, new set of injections and viola! The thing that people must realize is that due to their negligence in not having addressed the issue sooner, irreparable damage was done. As a result, yes your horse does now require bi-annual injections. This is the fault of the negligent owner, not the injection.

run n rate - 2015-10-22 11:26 AM


I'm totally ignorant, but if a horse is showing that much during the day at a show why in the world would they need to be lounged for an hour at a canter also? Wouldn't hand walking them be more effective as far as getting them out of their stall and moving around in a manner that wasn't doing more harm? Again, I'm ignorant of all things at this level of show. That and I've never been a big fan of lounging horses especially on a lounge line. If it was good for them I imagine our vets would recommend when we start legging them back up from an injury that we walk them in circles for the first 2 weeks

Also wanted to add I always love your insights.

run n rate - 2015-10-22 1:32 PM

Not exactly the same but I used to get in "spoken" to a little from the gentleman I took cutting lessons from because I didn't show up at 7 am to lope my gelding down for hours before the herd work at the reined cow shows. A) he didnt' need to be loped down and B) I dont' think it especially good for a horse to be loped for an hour in 6-8 inches of deep ground meant to slow a cow down. I'm not a big fan of fatigue training.

WrapSnap - 2015-10-22 12:11 AM I have to say, I feel as though many of the people who are saying that we don't see as many injections in the English disciplines were obviously not either in upper level programs, or "in the know" as to what was going on. There really isn't so much of a difference in the level and/or types of maintenance that the English horses get versus the barrel horses. If you have actual experience in both arenas, you'll get what I'm saying. You can go to any local, schooling type hunter show and watch a bunch of lesson horses packing a kid around the Short Stirrup Hunter class who's stifles are obviously shot. Maybe they have a bit of an uneven stride in the trot while hacking. Those same type horses are being loped through with little Susie at your local barrel race, being whipped on in an attempt to win the 4D in the Youth. The difference is that in the Hunter world, little Susie's trainers say nothing about the unsoundness, nor bring up joint injections. In the barrel racing world, little Susie's mom, who has never ridden a horse is her trainer and she is sitting on the fence screaming at Susie to whip harder. Susie's mom then gets on an online forum, maybe posts a video and 1,000 "internet vets" say they think that Susie's horse Spot looks very sore and that she should have his hocks checked. While Dressage horses are often dealt with quite differently, I can guarantee you that the top show Hunters, Jumpers and 3 Day Event horses become very good friends with their vets. Not only that, how many of you have ever been to say the Winter Equestrian Festival, in Wellington, FL. Take a walk through someone's barn (only if invited, of course) and take a peek in the feed room while you're at it. That big wipe board, that's the med list. I promise you that pretty much every horse in the barn is going to be on it. Those horses get more needles than most of the horses at the NFR. It only stands to reason. We'll say that while at a multi week show, a good Hunter is showing 3 or 4 days a week. That sucker is going to be on a longe line, cantering around for at least an hour and more likely two or three before each day of showing. That sort of wear and tear on one's body dictates that they are going to be sore. I can also tell you from personal experience that the 3 Day Event crowd are worse than barrel racers when it comes to injections. Those horses are truly the iron horses of Equestrian sport. Not only do they almost have to be a Dressage horse, they have to be adept at jumping a 1.20 meter show jump course and they have to be fit enough to gallop a cross country course, up and down terrain. Until recently, the Dressage phase of an Event was something that one "Must do in order to get to the fun part". Due to this, many riders never truly learned how to do it well. The horses were flatted in a very false manner, their heads pulled to their chests, completely lacking in engagement and very hollow through their spine. This led to the fact that many were having their SI injected. There was a time when in that world, you heard people telling others to get their horses SI done as frequently as we hear barrel racers discussing hocks. I do believe that too many people are not educated enough about joint injections. I also feel as though even fewer are properly educated about good quality leg care and conditioning. Why do leg work during the week to keep one sound when they can just go get their horse injected every six months? Most of those folks have no idea what their horse is being injected with, don't know what the joint looked like, nor know if the joint was dry, full of fluid, if the fluid was gritty/bloody. All they know is that their horse got his hocks done so he should win the barrel race this weekend. This again, I attribute to a lack of education. It scares me that even quite a few professionals, who are out winning big stuff, have no clue what to do for a horse beyond take it to the vet and say "It's not turning. Fix it!". All of this being said, I will be the first to inject one if they need it. I don't play games with my horse's joint health. If one tells me that they're having an issue, it gets addressed. If injecting it along with the other care that it receives is the best route to take at the time, that's what I'll do. If one really needs time off, I'll give them as much time as they need. I think that people overreact to young horses being injected . A lot of people tend to believe that once you inject, you will always have to inject. I feel that this was almost proven to be true for a long time. In my mind, the reason for that is because a horse with an issue would be left and run on that bad joint until it got to the point that it crippled up. The owner finally took it to the vet, the horse was injected, came sound and started performing again. Six months later, the horse started exhibiting signs of pain again. Back to the vet, new set of injections and viola! The thing that people must realize is that due to their negligence in not having addressed the issue sooner, irreparable damage was done. As a result, yes your horse does now require bi-annual injections. This is the fault of the negligent owner, not the injection.

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-22 2:59 PM

It is not as normal for injections to all  the differant joints as it is to barrel racers. I had a show barn in wellington for many years . and yes been "In the know " and upper level.. yes we did alot of stuff but to say it compares I disagree on..Im not one to name people not my style but I can say "all the top " didnt inject as much as some of the things I have seen with other disciplines....we injected when needed.. we gave time off and rode other mounts when needed , we tried holistic when needed and other therapies, we were best friends with our vets.. but we werent so fast to put a needle in their joint as I have seen in other events.. thats just how I see it..   we did alot of things I wont disagree on that .. we all have our opinions though..  

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-22 3:26 PM

 Ok I am sorry I got a defensive lol.. we do keep our horses comfortable and certainly not aganist injecting.. or maybe I just closed my eyes to some .. it just appears that some inject blindly for any issue I guess was what  was trying to say.. in BR.. without knowing why or what it does etc.. :) I think some dont realize that it will wear down their joints later on in years.. so to have it done sparingly as a only when needed basis is best but i do feel its a necessary evil when needed and all other avenues have been taken.