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  Champ
Posts: 19623
   
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.   I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another  |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | http://www.thehorse.com/articles/34058/surrogate-mares-impact-on-em...
An interesting study. |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Mighty Broke - 2016-05-09 3:39 PM
OhMax - 2016-05-09 12:47 PM I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay.
Size of the mature stud does not play into the size of the newborn foal.
I guess I don't know as much as I thought I did.... I always assumed it didn't matter if he was 12 months old or 12 years old when he coverd the mare, he is going to throw the same type of foal? |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.   I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Here is a cut and paste:
Back to fetal development. The size of the fetus at birth is often determined more by the mare's uterine capacity than by genetics, although genetics do kick in once the foal has been born.
In one bit of research at Colorado State University, a Shetland pony mare was inseminated with semen from a draft horse stallion. The pony mare delivered a small foal during a normal birth, but the foal soon outgrew its mother once it was on the ground and nursing.
Two papers presented at the International Symposium on Equine Reproduction held in South Africa in July also indicated that the mare exerts considerable influence on the size of the growing fetus.
In one paper, a researcher from Poland--Marian Tischer, who studied embryo transfer foals--found that "irrespective of genetic makeup, the ultimate height of the horse is decided by nourishment during gestation and less so by the milk capacity of the mare."
The second study was carried out by researchers in England who studied the influence of maternal size on fetal and post-natal development in the horse. They reported that, "Maternal size significantly affects fetal growth, presumably by means of limiting the area of uterine endometrium available for attachment of the diffuse epitheliochorial placenta." |
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 The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.
One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare? |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| RacingQH - 2016-05-14 11:48 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
   IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.Â
  One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare?Â
There will always be outliers in about every situation. There are 'norms' and 'exceptions'.
The statement was made that the mare's capacity having an impact on fetal size was an old wives tale. These studies show that more often than not, mare capacity does affect fetal size. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | bennie1 - 2016-05-14 1:42 PM
RacingQH - 2016-05-14 11:48 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
   IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.Â
  One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare?Â
There will always be outliers in about every situation. There are 'norms' and 'exceptions'.
The statement was made that the mare's capacity having an impact on fetal size was an old wives tale. These studies show that more often than not, mare capacity does affect fetal size.
What you are trying to say is... 'the average is calculated from extremes'... Lets say cows can cycle anywhere from 18 to 24 days apart.. so we say 21 days... Edited by komet. 2016-05-14 2:49 PM
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| i have a horsei was showing i knew had ulcers and iwas using 1/3 of a tube and it worked as well as a whole tibe . i ran out one shoe and the oxygen product that comesin a tube he acted like i had not given him any thing.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | daisycake123 - 2016-05-15 7:25 AM i have a horsei was showing i knew had ulcers and iwas using 1/3 of a tube and it worked as well as a whole tibe . i ran out one shoe and the oxygen product that comesin a tube he acted like i had not given him any thing.
I'm 99.99% sure you posted this one the wrong thread LOL |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | bennie1 - 2016-05-13 6:34 PM
OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.   I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size
I've read studies. But my experience has taught me otherwise. Mares can and do have babies that are too big to come out. There's very little wiggle room for things to go well or go horribly wrong. I had one this year that was a dang yearling when we got her out. She was already dead from an extended wait for the vet to come. Her mother was an old pro and she COULDN'T get her out without 2 men and a woman pulling for all they were worth on cables around the fillies pasterns. The next thing we would have had to do is take her out in pieces. |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| OregonBR - 2016-05-16 11:37 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-13 6:34 PM
OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.   I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size
I've read studies. But my experience has taught me otherwise. Mares can and do have babies that are too big to come out. There's very little wiggle room for things to go well or go horribly wrong. I had one this year that was a dang yearling when we got her out. She was already dead from an extended wait for the vet to come. Her mother was an old pro and she COULDN'T get her out without 2 men and a woman pulling for all they were worth on cables around the fillies pasterns. The next thing we would have had to do is take her out in pieces.
I have unfortunately had the same experience with a too large foal several years ago. The impetus for me researching this issue to prevent it from happening again. The conclusion I came to after reading what I could find on the subject was, sometimes bad things happen despite all our best efforts to take precautions. |
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 Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM
I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me
No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out!
I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen.
I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare! |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | bennie1 - 2016-05-17 3:22 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM
I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me
No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out!
I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen.
I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare!
A good outcome would be great, but as we all know stress founder is one ugly creature, I have am very afraid we aren't going to see good results.
I told my husband 3 nights ago it wouldn't be so hard to take if the foal hadn't been so beautiful. A big jet black stud colt, but then insult added to injury when the mare started showing signs of being ill. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | crossspur - 2016-05-17 3:59 PM bennie1 - 2016-05-17 3:22 PM crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out! I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen. I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare! A good outcome would be great, but as we all know stress founder is one ugly creature, I have am very afraid we aren't going to see good results. I told my husband 3 nights ago it wouldn't be so hard to take if the foal hadn't been so beautiful. A big jet black stud colt, but then insult added to injury when the mare started showing signs of being ill.
Oh no so sorry to hear this, prayers for your mare.  |
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