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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
  
Location: West Texas | Ok, I am dying to know, what is it with the wide gullet width on the barrel saddles. We've ridden horses pretty extensively and know a fair bit about saddle fit. All of our saddles have 6 1/4" or 6 1/2" gullets. I have never seen a horse that a 7" gullet fit, and you guys are taking about much bigger than that. Part of me thinks, "no wonder they don't fit". Am I missing something?
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-22 9:16 PM
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:08 PM Ok, I am dying to know, what is it with the wide gullet width on the barrel saddles. We've ridden horses pretty extensively and know a fair bit about saddle fit. All of our saddles have 6 1/4" or 6 1/2" gullets. I have never seen a horse that a 7" gullet fit, and you guys are taking about much bigger than that. Part of me thinks, "no wonder they don't fit". Am I missing something? Nope......it's not about gullet width so much as the angle of the bars. Unless you've in marketing and telling people they need gullets wide enough to fit an elephant.  there's a reason the monster gullets come from one source and you don't see many top trainers in them.
Edited by MS2011 2015-09-22 9:34 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder)
Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO.
I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up.
I tried the tod sloan b3
Lisa Lockhart extra wide
Charmayne James
Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree
Pozzi wide fit
Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | The same horse that I ride in an 8" Martin also can wear a 6.5 in other brands if the angle of the bars is right. Martins are just weird. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood.
I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better.
One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit. | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 7:28 PM
Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder)
Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO.
I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up.
I tried the tod sloan b3
Lisa Lockhart extra wide
Charmayne James
Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree
Pozzi wide fit
Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle
Why does it need an obscene gullet for shoulder clearance when it sits BEHIND the shoulder. That doesn't even make sense.
Martin has an outstanding marketing strategist, that's for sure. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood. I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better. One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit. With any saddle, western or english, it is has been found that fitting the saddle so the tree sits BEHIND the shoulder blade is optimal because it allows the horse to move more freely and will eliminate pinching (as long as it is correctly fitted). Caldwell's are designed to fit on top of the shoulder but in MOST cases, it is a myth that saddles should be pulled up over the shoulder.
It is also a misconception that Thoroughbreds always have narrow back. Horses of ALL breeds are getting wider. I know a professional saddle fitter that deals mostly with english saddles, but said she has yet to fit a thoroughbred in anything less than a medium/wide tree.
If your saddle fits totally correctly, a 1/2"-3/4" pad is what should be used. If you use a thicker pad, it will alter the fit of the saddle and can make a saddle that fits not fit. The only time thicker pads come in handy is if your saddle is the correct shape but a little too wide.
Martin is the only company to my knowledge with the REALLY wide gullets. Their philosophy is obviously to fit the saddle behind the shoulder and if the horse has some atrophy, filling that spot in with a shim. It doesn't mean the saddle doesn't "fit" it's just giving that muscle the chance to regenerate. The idea is to move up gullet sizes as your horse's back grows. With that method, some horses backs can just grow and grow and that's how the reach those super wide gullets.
Oh, and also as far as keeping saddles back off the shoulder. Most saddles will naturally slide into the correct place. In my horse's case, he has a very forward girth groove so his saddle gets pulled forward if I use a normal cinch. Since buying an anatomic cinch from Total Saddle Fit, it keeps his saddle (Meleta Brown #2 tree) in the right spot, behind his shoulders.
This video explains Martin's theory pretty well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iVhzeegyk
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-09-23 12:17 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Three 4 Luck - 2015-09-22 9:32 PM The same horse that I ride in an 8" Martin also can wear a 6.5 in other brands if the angle of the bars is right. Martins are just weird.
This is because the gullet size of a Martin is the bare tree measurement
I think the others measure the finished width of the gullet.
I have a Martin 8.5 but I'd guarantee it wouldn't measure that wide with a tape. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | barrelracr131 - 2015-09-23 5:17 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-09-22 9:32 PM The same horse that I ride in an 8" Martin also can wear a 6.5 in other brands if the angle of the bars is right. Martins are just weird. This is because the gullet size of a Martin is the bare tree measurement
I think the others measure the finished width of the gullet.
I have a Martin 8.5 but I'd guarantee it wouldn't measure that wide with a tape.
All gullets are measured on a raw tree, you cannot accurately measure them once a saddle is built. It's just a Martin deal to build the super wide gullets. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Eh, idk then
i just know this is the only saddle that doesn't sore him lol
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7550
Location: In The Land of Cotton | cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 10:28 PM Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder) Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO. I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up. I tried the tod sloan b3 Lisa Lockhart extra wide Charmayne James Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree Pozzi wide fit Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle
On the saddle you have with the 11 inch gullett, would you mind taking a tape to it and showing us? I have seen a lot of saddles and am a little older and have never seen one, in a store or otherwise. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM
Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood.
I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better.
One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit.
There is also new research being done to prove that a cinch should be set back to allow elbow clearance. I haven't read much on this.
I was taught years ago that the cinch should be atleast one hand with behind the elbow, honestly this is difficult to do with most saddles.
There are also making cinches that have the elbow relief, I am waiting till they come out in shearling to try one.
Martins philosophy believes that the strongest part of the back is farther back, as the shoulders the bones can be manipulated in the shoulder as there is less muscle holding the scapula in place. If you call brain or Tracey at Martin they can explain it better.
The problem I had with shoulder flare saddles, is the angles of the bars were never wide enough.
The Lisa Lockhart extra wide was 120 degrees, my one horse this fit her, but there was too much rock in the tree it still caused pressure points. Martin customizes each saddle, so I could get a saddle that was wide enough and flat enough to not sore up my horse.
The pozzi saddles I believe the widest tree is 90 degrees, they only measure one side so I believe their wide is 45 degrees.
I have a saddle maker as a friend and she says the rule of thumb for many years was full quarterhorse bars was around 93 degrees.
When I measured all my horses backs with a protractor, none of my horses backs were under 100 degrees with the exception to my 2 and 3 yr olds | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| 3canstorun - 2015-09-23 7:45 AM
cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 10:28 PM Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder) Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO. I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up. I tried the tod sloan b3 Lisa Lockhart extra wide Charmayne James Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree Pozzi wide fit Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle
On the saddle you have with the 11 inch gullett, would you mind taking a tape to it and showing us? I have seen a lot of saddles and am a little older and have never seen one, in a store or otherwise.
I can take a picture, but I can't post to the page, if you message me your email, I can send it to you.
Actually anyone who wants to see it I can email it to.
It won't be till later on today | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | cheryl makofka - 2015-09-23 7:49 AM Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood. I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better. One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit. There is also new research being done to prove that a cinch should be set back to allow elbow clearance. I haven't read much on this. I was taught years ago that the cinch should be atleast one hand with behind the elbow, honestly this is difficult to do with most saddles. There are also making cinches that have the elbow relief, I am waiting till they come out in shearling to try one. Martins philosophy believes that the strongest part of the back is farther back, as the shoulders the bones can be manipulated in the shoulder as there is less muscle holding the scapula in place. If you call brain or Tracey at Martin they can explain it better. The problem I had with shoulder flare saddles, is the angles of the bars were never wide enough. The Lisa Lockhart extra wide was 120 degrees, my one horse this fit her, but there was too much rock in the tree it still caused pressure points. Martin customizes each saddle, so I could get a saddle that was wide enough and flat enough to not sore up my horse. The pozzi saddles I believe the widest tree is 90 degrees, they only measure one side so I believe their wide is 45 degrees. I have a saddle maker as a friend and she says the rule of thumb for many years was full quarterhorse bars was around 93 degrees. When I measured all my horses backs with a protractor, none of my horses backs were under 100 degrees with the exception to my 2 and 3 yr olds
I ride double js mostly and this is how I have always cinched mine up. I like about a hand width back from the elbow. Growing up my grandpa always told me to "get that saddle off his withers and get the girth back so it's not into their elbow." Over the years I've tried to learn as much as I can about saddle fit and I believe a saddle and girth should sit a little further back.
My my geilding is huge and if I rode with the saddle on his shoulder...it would have to be super wide and super flaired. I've used a standard Pozzi fitted just behind the shoulder blade for 7 years now. It's a little tight, but it's never made him sore. I am going to order a wide soon.
I agree its all in the angle of the bars..and the twist, the rock, and the flair. My cj cactus with a 7" gullet is obviously wider than a standard Pozzi but was super tight on my geilding when the Pozzi isn't, due to the flatter bars. I can see the need for maybe an 8" gullet but I am not sure of going much bigger or on martins whole philosophy of shimming. However, I think it's great that nowadays we have options and are becoming more educated beyond throwing something on their back and just cinching it down. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but....
1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it.
2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front.
3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low.
4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses.
4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle.
I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-23 9:11 AM
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.
What kind of saddle(s) do you use? | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't disagree with you there. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 287
| My dad cowboys for a living and literally would starve to death if he sored very many horses up. He has a couple custom made saddles and you want to know what he uses for pads? A couple of wool pads. No fancy pads or shims or wjatever. He spends days in the saddle and doesn't sore horses. If a saddle fits CORRECTLY it doesn't need shimmed. And I do agree about the fact that a horses back will hollow and teach those muscles to stay that way if their head is up like a giraffe. I think this trend of super extra wide saddles is a fad. Have thought that for awhile, glad someone brought it up. | |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | I know that it wasn't until I made a run in my daughter's saddle a couple of months ago that I realized that I had been riding in a saddle that didn't fit me at all. I've always preferred a bigger seat and exercise my horses in a ranch cutting saddle. My Caldwell was a 14.5" and I loved it..until I made a run in my daughter's 14" Allen Ranch and wasn't struggling to stay up where I needed to be. I've had a Crown C, Caldwell ProMax, Three Forks Merrill, Double J Record Breaker, and random others in the past ten years. Hands down the best fitting, most comfortable saddle is my Allen Ranch that I bought the next day after using Pj's. My Allen Ranch doesn't have a crazy wide gullet or a wide tree and it fits everything I've put it on with a pad change. The pad I ride under it on my big mare is barely 1/2" thick and only weighs 24oz.
The thing that I've noticed about the people that are riding the wide gullet Crown C's is that they stay tipped forward and fight their saddle rather than ride their horse. My Crown C had a 7" gullet and it was just awkward to ride. Barrel saddles aren't typically made in larger sizes...which also creates an issue for a person that actually needs a 16" seat and is wedged into a 14.5". They have no idea how much more comfortable they would be and better able to ride in a cutting saddle that would allow them to move. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | I've always wondered this as well... I ride a traditional fit saddle... Never had a problem...
My friend has had four Martins all in different widths this past year becasue they would fit when she got them at the store and after getting them home and riding in them for a few months they would no longer fit or her horses back would sore up.
I LOVE Martins saddles...Absolutely swoon over them when I see them in store. They're beautiful and very well made in my opinion... but I think I'll save my money and get a custom made saddle from a local shop instead... I would hate to spend that kind of money on a saddle that wouldn't fit in a few months...
Edited by IRunOnFaith 2015-09-23 9:54 AM
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