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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
  
Location: Idaho | I bought my horse about a year and a half ago, and he needed a lot of work. Since then, he has had all the work done; seen a chiro, vet, dentist, steady farrier schedule, up to a good healthy weight and is in shape. He has some scars that does suggest he has been mistreated, and there are certain things about him that he gets scared of(like he doesn't like men, if you get on him about stuff he will start to shake) He has been treated for Ulcers(which was one of his big problems) and is on maintenance for Ulcers per my vet's recommendations, and it has helped immensely with both his attitude/ anxiety and performance. He had a real hard mouth and he would brace a lot, I have also worked him down from needing to be ridden in a Long shanked combo bit to a snaffle, I can work him on patterns with a smooth three piece with a minimal gag and he is very light and I hardly have to touch him to get him to move around.
My thing is, now I'm entering him back into races. I work to keep him calm and relaxed because he can get very nervous sometimes, and he does fine with that. But now when he goes to turn into the barrel, he sets up just like he does in time only's and practices(in which are perfect runs by the way, tight turns, soft in the bit, flexing), but he doesn't finish the turn and tries to get away from me by trying to throw his head and get away from the bit, but he has a tie down and he can't get away from it. It does not work, but it effects our run and our time. I don't think its a pain issue as I have been in close contact with my vet and he knows this horse well, but I just am on the fence. I have done a ton of slow work on him, he knows how to get his head down, his teeth are fine, he just saw a chiro less than a month ago and checked out clean. A part of me just wants to sell him, because through all the time, effort and money I have put into this horse I just don't know if he wants to continue doing barrels. Or maybe he just needs a different bit.. or maybe I just need to be more aggressive with him? I don't know. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 133
Location: texas | ALWAYS be patient. he will get with you. also bond with him a lot and show him you wont do anything to hurt him or get him hurt. love on him. keep working with him. it will click in his head and he will become a nice barrel horse. ive made the mistake of giving up. don't make the same mistake I made. it takes time. especially with one that was abused! you can do it:) | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Honestly, sounds like something he's doing for something like hocks or stifles. Can he hold his leads in the back if you lunge him on a long line at a lope? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Ashlen, thank you for the words of confidence. Trust me, I do treat him very well.
Classic, Yep he holds them very nicely. Even when I am on him he does nice pretty circles and I can do corkscrews on him all day long. He really gets under himself and he has a huge stride, he's never come up short, and he really sits when he turns especially on his third barrel in practice or time onlys, as well as his end poles when practicing poles and I do not drill him, I'll practice on him maybe once or twice every couple of weeks if there is barrel race coming up and if he does a nice run, I will just walk him through it one more time then be done with it. The rest is slow work. | |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Cool! That's my go to indicator!
Check out your approach into the barrel. You may not be giving him enough room, and he's being forced to step out of the turn, then as you pick him up and try to correct him, it makes him worse. Make sure during your practice, you really spend time over finishing the turn and rewarding him. Make sure that you're riding him all the way into the turn, so that his hip is even with barrel before you begin and continue your turn. Try to keep the barrel behind your leg through the entire turn. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| In my experience it takes horses approx 6 months of competition running for it to click that it no longer hurts, sometimes it can take up to a year.
This is if they are completely pain free.
I will say not all vets are created equal, I would have someone video and see what the horse does while running does he change leads especially hinds in the turn (this is a sign of pain), is he swishing his tail going in, around, or coming out, (signs of pain), is he sticking his inside foot into pivot, or is he toeing his hind leg around never digging in just bouncing around, (another sign of pain) these generally indicate hocks/stifles/si.
Also have you thought about giving him something to take the edge off while he runs, I am not an advocate of giving anything to a horse, but if you have hit a wall, I know some people use valerian root, riva remedies have a good calming agent you apply a few drops in their mouth (I have friends who use this on themselves). There is also a human antipsychotic drug vets can give every 3 months that works well for abused horses, I do know of one horse who had dangerous gate issues, had one shot of the drug after the vet went over him with a fine tooth comb, never needed a booster and became a very safe kids rodeo horse. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Thank you for the advice.
To be honest, when it comes to giving him the pocket.. in practice he doesn't really get a big pocket? And he doesn't really rate either.. he just runs and turns. It might be me and my timing, he is the complete opposite of my old horse that I ran for 5 years that was very push style.. this horse is a free runner all the way. It's just frustrating! Because he does so good in practice.. and while he does okay in competition, its not where I wish he would be.
I have video's, just I don't have them. They are just posted to my facebook by my friends, so I can't save them. But he doesn't swish his tail, doesn't swap his leads front or back, I'm not sure what you mean by the "toeing out or toeing in." My vet is actually very good.. and I am super picky about my "team" that works and takes after on my horses. I will call and ask him tomorrow on his opinion.. my horse is 10 years old, and like I said he moves out pretty nice. He's not stiff, and his strides are not coming up short or anything like that.
ETA: And he doesn't bounce when he turns.. he slides.
Edited by DashNDustem 2015-03-22 11:31 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| DashNDustem - 2015-03-22 11:29 PM
Thank you for the advice.
To be honest, when it comes to giving him the pocket.. in practice he doesn't really get a big pocket? And he doesn't really rate either.. he just runs and turns. It might be me and my timing, he is the complete opposite of my old horse that I ran for 5 years that was very push style.. this horse is a free runner all the way. It's just frustrating! Because he does so good in practice.. and while he does okay in competition, its not where I wish he would be.
I have video's, just I don't have them. They are just posted to my facebook by my friends, so I can't save them. But he doesn't swish his tail, doesn't swap his leads front or back, I'm not sure what you mean by the "toeing out or toeing in." My vet is actually very good.. and I am super picky about my "team" that works and takes after on my horses. I will call and ask him tomorrow on his opinion.. my horse is 10 years old, and like I said he moves out pretty nice. He's not stiff, and his strides are not coming up short or anything like that.
ETA: And he doesn't bounce when he turns.. he slides.
It's not toeing out or in, what I mean is how they put it into the ground and how they keep it there while turning. A sore horse will not completely engage the inside hind foot, it looks like the inside leg is skimming the top of the ground, or like they are stabbing the toe into the ground.
If he is not sore, then it may just take runs, I say it is like the blown up horses have PTSD, we all act differently during a competition run and the horses sense that and it can trigger flashbacks and anxiety.
As someone else said it could be timing, timing is different when the horses are asked to run versus patterning, and it may take you two a year to feel each other out.
It could also be a combination, and that is the frustrating part.
Good luck
Edited by cheryl makofka 2015-03-23 12:56 AM
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| Horse and rider problems ... first thing ... find about any video of Cervi riding Stingray and watch her sit deep and quiet in the saddle, Where she spots the first quarter turn out in front of the 1st barrel (there is a 1 1/4 turn on 1st barrel), change to riding 2 handed between barrels to square herself and horse up before rating or turning, and reaching to the inside rein and shortening it up to virtually lead Stingray around the barrel without tilting her nose to the outside by neck reining .. and notice she leaves the barrels with slack in the reins since she does not use her reins to regain her balance in the saddle ... these two are the most consistent runners you will ever see ....
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
From your description:
POSSIBLE RIDER ERRORS: Barrel reins are too short and same with tie down; rider uses a neck reining move with hand in center of reins tilts horses nose to outside which interferes with his finishing his turns, no quick 2 handed change up between barrels and horse and rider are not squared up and rider is leaning into the barrel; rider gets behind in the turn and jerks reins at the 3/4 turn to regain their balance; rider is too busy whooping on horse to notice what her other hand and body are doing and flopping all over the horse/saddle...
POSSIBLE EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS: Barrel reins too short .. when sitting still you should be able to touch your belly button with the center of the reins.. this gives enough slack in outside rein so rider does not tilt his head to the outside in a counter arch .. .. Tie Down too short .. horse needs to stick out his nose to run hard and his head and neck to balance himself turning the barrels; again look at Stingray's tie down and length of reins .. tie down allows her to stick her nose out but will give her a bump if her head gets too high .. and she has learned how to use it to balance herself around the barrels ..
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
BIT if it is an O ring snaffle .. most are poorly made and will pinch the horse in the corner of the mouth.. look at how bit fits the ring .. this is the reason you see people using the rubber bit guards which sore up the corners instead of pinching ... horse will usually have pink corners due to the rubber bit guard; Most people do not understand how a snaffle bit hangs in a horses mouth .. it does not break over and strike the horse in the roof of the mouth .. a snaffle is a lip pressure bit. see picture below or just hold your bridle up by the poll strap and look at how your bit hangs .. this is how it sits in the horses mouth .. most people think a snaffle works like a nut cracker across the mouth ..
IMO this is the best snaffle made .. my old bit maker sold his patent to Clinton Anderson and they have this bit for sale now. It is called an offset O-ring snaffle .. notice the bit is built into the ring with no possibility of pinching the corners of the mouth. (picture)
Horse health; make sure wolf teeth have been removed and gums felt to make sure there is not a broken piece hiding in his gum ... re-do his basic side passing skills and diagonal forward moving two beat movements traveling forward while floating across the arena .. this is the high speed move they make reaching in with front feet to turn the barrel ...
FAILURE TO FINISH BARREL TURN: usually the culprits are ... the tight reins and misuse of riders hands in the turn that makes horse think he has been cued to to a one rein stop or to counter arch which throws the rear end out and he can't finish the turn; falilure of rider to bump the inside rein to guide the horse to finish the turn; rider grabbing reins to rebalance themselves;
These are just simple things that all of us have garnered as bad habits over the years .. we all want lightning to strike us with some rare awakening that will magically correct the simple things we have overlooked until they are habits and used unknowingly ...
Most videos by friends are of poor quality and they are in the wrong position to catch you and your horse's movements ... pay attention to where the pro videographers like 1-2-3 are videoing from ... sometime when you feel you had a super crappy or super good run try to buy that video if a pro is there .. and analyze it move by move to Cervi ..
Don't beat yourself up too badly if you discover you have picked up some bad habits .. just start making each correction at a walk, trot, lope in order to regain your good habits and do them without thinking when making your speed run
GOOD LUCK .. SIMPLE IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING!! ..
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2015-03-23 2:47 AM
 (BIT 2 PIECE SNAFFLE IN HORSES MOUTH 250.jpg)
 (BIT OFFSET O RING 5 IN 2 PIECE SWEET IRON COPPER BARS - 2.jpg)
 (OFFSET O-RING SNAFFLE.jpg)
Attachments
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 BIT 2 PIECE SNAFFLE IN HORSES MOUTH 250.jpg (31KB - 182 downloads)
BIT OFFSET O RING 5 IN 2 PIECE SWEET IRON COPPER BARS - 2.jpg (40KB - 186 downloads)
OFFSET O-RING SNAFFLE.jpg (59KB - 187 downloads)
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| That bit you refer to as an offset O ring, looks a whole lot like a regular ol' offset D ring, which has been around for a real long time. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Thank you Cheryl, that makes a lot of sense all the way around! I would have to really look at his runs to see if he is doing that.
And you are right about the PTSD thing, his ulcers were a HUGE part of his disposition problem. He used to be very on the muscle, stiff, unwilling to give and he wouldn't want to run at all. Also if he ever panicked he would take off running. He would refuse patterns, spin, bulk, stop, back up.. would not want to go forward so I decided to give him a year off. And when I started to treat him for ulcers.. it was amazing how different he became. He was like a totally different horse.. so much softer, responsive, and seems so much happier. I do keep him on all natural Aloe vera juice per my vets recommendations as maintenance and he has been great.
Thank you very much, I feel better now :) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | BARRELHORSE USA - 2015-03-24 12:44 AM
Horse and rider problems ... first thing ... find about any video of Cervi riding Stingray and watch her sit deep and quiet in the saddle, Where she spots the first quarter turn out in front of the 1st barrel (there is a 1 1/4 turn on 1st barrel ), change to riding 2 handed between barrels to square herself and horse up before rating or turning, and reaching to the inside rein and shortening it up to virtually lead Stingray around the barrel without tilting her nose to the outside by neck reining .. and notice she leaves the barrels with slack in the reins since she does not use her reins to regain her balance in the saddle ... these two are the most consistent runners you will ever see ....
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
From your description:
POSSIBLE RIDER ERRORS: Barrel reins are too short and same with tie down; rider uses a neck reining move with hand in center of reins tilts horses nose to outside which interferes with his finishing his turns, no quick 2 handed change up between barrels and horse and rider are not squared up and rider is leaning into the barrel; rider gets behind in the turn and jerks reins at the 3/4 turn to regain their balance; rider is too busy whooping on horse to notice what her other hand and body are doing and flopping all over the horse/saddle...
POSSIBLE EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS: Barrel reins too short .. when sitting still you should be able to touch your belly button with the center of the reins.. this gives enough slack in outside rein so rider does not tilt his head to the outside in a counter arch .. .. Tie Down too short .. horse needs to stick out his nose to run hard and his head and neck to balance himself turning the barrels; again look at Stingray's tie down and length of reins .. tie down allows her to stick her nose out but will give her a bump if her head gets too high .. and she has learned how to use it to balance herself around the barrels ..
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
BIT if it is an O ring snaffle .. most are poorly made and will pinch the horse in the corner of the mouth.. look at how bit fits the ring .. this is the reason you see people using the rubber bit guards which sore up the corners instead of pinching ... horse will usually have pink corners due to the rubber bit guard; Most people do not understand how a snaffle bit hangs in a horses mouth .. it does not break over and strike the horse in the roof of the mouth .. a snaffle is a lip pressure bit. see picture below or just hold your bridle up by the poll strap and look at how your bit hangs .. this is how it sits in the horses mouth .. most people think a snaffle works like a nut cracker across the mouth ..
IMO this is the best snaffle made .. my old bit maker sold his patent to Clinton Anderson and they have this bit for sale now. It is called an offset O-ring snaffle .. notice the bit is built into the ring with no possibility of pinching the corners of the mouth. (picture )
Horse health; make sure wolf teeth have been removed and gums felt to make sure there is not a broken piece hiding in his gum ... re-do his basic side passing skills and diagonal forward moving two beat movements traveling forward while floating across the arena .. this is the high speed move they make reaching in with front feet to turn the barrel ...
FAILURE TO FINISH BARREL TURN: usually the culprits are ... the tight reins and misuse of riders hands in the turn that makes horse think he has been cued to to a one rein stop or to counter arch which throws the rear end out and he can't finish the turn; falilure of rider to bump the inside rein to guide the horse to finish the turn; rider grabbing reins to rebalance themselves;
These are just simple things that all of us have garnered as bad habits over the years .. we all want lightning to strike us with some rare awakening that will magically correct the simple things we have overlooked until they are habits and used unknowingly ...
Most videos by friends are of poor quality and they are in the wrong position to catch you and your horse's movements ... pay attention to where the pro videographers like 1-2-3 are videoing from ... sometime when you feel you had a super crappy or super good run try to buy that video if a pro is there .. and analyze it move by move to Cervi ..
Don't beat yourself up too badly if you discover you have picked up some bad habits .. just start making each correction at a walk, trot, lope in order to regain your good habits and do them without thinking when making your speed run
GOOD LUCK .. SIMPLE IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING!! ..
Barrelhorse..
I'm not sure where you get the information, especially because you haven't watched any of my video's? Or maybe you have.. I have quite a few people on my facebook, I don't know.
First my reins are not too short, he has a very high headset when he runs and turns and I need shorter reins.. because I've had longer reins in the past and when they are that length, I scramble for them which caused me to lose my seat and screws up my timing because I am trying to re position my hands instead of ride my horse. Second of all.. I don't pull on the outside rein when coming into a barrel. Doing that causes them to drop their shoulders, and usually people do that when their worried about running into a barrel.. and my horses don't hit barrels. I don't use my reins to balance either.. Having an english foundation I jumped for 4 years and did dressage for 2, and I work my horses mainly off my body and leg cues.. I can ride this horse bridleless and have him work mainly off my legs without any issue.
And I'm not running him in an O Ring snaffle. I don't like riding in a two piece snaffle.. I always ride in a three piece with a french link or dog bone. I have already stated his teeth have been taken care of. Yes I have some bad habits.. but we all do. Oh and also,
"rider is too busy whooping on horse to notice what her other hand and body are doing and flopping all over the horse/saddle... "
This is rather insulting because I don't whip my horse. He does not like whips due to his past, I don't even wear spurs because I don't care for them.. second of all I don't "flop" all over my horses saddle. Often times when your running a horse and your barrel racing.. if you do not know how to sit your seat and hold on with your legs, you will hit the dirt before the run is over. I have been riding for a long time.. I'm sure you were using it as an example and not me directly, but perhaps you should read what I wrote before coming up with your "conclusions."
Edited by DashNDustem 2015-03-23 1:00 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| DashNDustem - 2015-03-22 11:29 PM
Thank you for the advice.
To be honest, when it comes to giving him the pocket.. in practice he doesn't really get a big pocket? And he doesn't really rate either.. he just runs and turns. It might be me and my timing, he is the complete opposite of my old horse that I ran for 5 years that was very push style.. this horse is a free runner all the way. It's just frustrating! Because he does so good in practice.. and while he does okay in competition, its not where I wish he would be.
I have video's, just I don't have them. They are just posted to my facebook by my friends, so I can't save them. But he doesn't swish his tail, doesn't swap his leads front or back, I'm not sure what you mean by the "toeing out or toeing in." My vet is actually very good.. and I am super picky about my "team" that works and takes after on my horses. I will call and ask him tomorrow on his opinion.. my horse is 10 years old, and like I said he moves out pretty nice. He's not stiff, and his strides are not coming up short or anything like that.
ETA: And he doesn't bounce when he turns.. he slides.
No help with your horse, but with the videos...if you have a smart phone, there is an app you can download that will allow you to save videos from Facebook to your phone :) Discovered this when I found out my backup program wasn't working and I had to reset my phone! I can look for the name of it again if you'd like. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | k.maddocks24 - 2015-03-24 11:00 AM
DashNDustem - 2015-03-22 11:29 PM
Thank you for the advice.
To be honest, when it comes to giving him the pocket.. in practice he doesn't really get a big pocket? And he doesn't really rate either.. he just runs and turns. It might be me and my timing, he is the complete opposite of my old horse that I ran for 5 years that was very push style.. this horse is a free runner all the way. It's just frustrating! Because he does so good in practice.. and while he does okay in competition, its not where I wish he would be.
I have video's, just I don't have them. They are just posted to my facebook by my friends, so I can't save them. But he doesn't swish his tail, doesn't swap his leads front or back, I'm not sure what you mean by the "toeing out or toeing in." My vet is actually very good.. and I am super picky about my "team" that works and takes after on my horses. I will call and ask him tomorrow on his opinion.. my horse is 10 years old, and like I said he moves out pretty nice. He's not stiff, and his strides are not coming up short or anything like that.
ETA: And he doesn't bounce when he turns.. he slides.
No help with your horse, but with the videos...if you have a smart phone, there is an app you can download that will allow you to save videos from Facebook to your phone : ) Discovered this when I found out my backup program wasn't working and I had to reset my phone! I can look for the name of it again if you'd like.
Maddock that would be awesome! I have a few videos of him that I would love to save, just so I can watch them and study them. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| DashNDustem - 2015-03-23 1:02 PM
k.maddocks24 - 2015-03-24 11:00 AM
DashNDustem - 2015-03-22 11:29 PM
Thank you for the advice.
To be honest, when it comes to giving him the pocket.. in practice he doesn't really get a big pocket? And he doesn't really rate either.. he just runs and turns. It might be me and my timing, he is the complete opposite of my old horse that I ran for 5 years that was very push style.. this horse is a free runner all the way. It's just frustrating! Because he does so good in practice.. and while he does okay in competition, its not where I wish he would be.
I have video's, just I don't have them. They are just posted to my facebook by my friends, so I can't save them. But he doesn't swish his tail, doesn't swap his leads front or back, I'm not sure what you mean by the "toeing out or toeing in." My vet is actually very good.. and I am super picky about my "team" that works and takes after on my horses. I will call and ask him tomorrow on his opinion.. my horse is 10 years old, and like I said he moves out pretty nice. He's not stiff, and his strides are not coming up short or anything like that.
ETA: And he doesn't bounce when he turns.. he slides.
No help with your horse, but with the videos...if you have a smart phone, there is an app you can download that will allow you to save videos from Facebook to your phone : ) Discovered this when I found out my backup program wasn't working and I had to reset my phone! I can look for the name of it again if you'd like.
Maddock that would be awesome! I have a few videos of him that I would love to save, just so I can watch them and study them.
Found it! I have a Droid, and in the Play store the app is "MyVideoDownloader for Facebook" and the publisher is "giannz". There is also another app called Coach's Eye that I use to analyze videos in slow motion and freeze frame. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| DashNDustem - 2015-03-23 12:41 PM
Thank you Cheryl, that makes a lot of sense all the way around! I would have to really look at his runs to see if he is doing that.
And you are right about the PTSD thing, his ulcers were a HUGE part of his disposition problem. He used to be very on the muscle, stiff, unwilling to give and he wouldn't want to run at all. Also if he ever panicked he would take off running. He would refuse patterns, spin, bulk, stop, back up.. would not want to go forward so I decided to give him a year off. And when I started to treat him for ulcers.. it was amazing how different he became. He was like a totally different horse.. so much softer, responsive, and seems so much happier. I do keep him on all natural Aloe vera juice per my vets recommendations as maintenance and he has been great.
Thank you very much, I feel better now :)
I have never had any luck with aloe vera, I would suggest looking at getting him some omeprazole for race days.
I have one she is an internalizer big time worrier, I give her omeprazole (I use the stuff Douglas sells) the day of for evening jackpots, for weekend races, I give the day before, days of, and day after. I also make sure she has hay in front of her 24/7.
It may be beneficial to look at something a little stronger then aloe Vera on the days of competition | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-24 12:54 PM
DashNDustem - 2015-03-23 12:41 PM
Thank you Cheryl, that makes a lot of sense all the way around! I would have to really look at his runs to see if he is doing that.
And you are right about the PTSD thing, his ulcers were a HUGE part of his disposition problem. He used to be very on the muscle, stiff, unwilling to give and he wouldn't want to run at all. Also if he ever panicked he would take off running. He would refuse patterns, spin, bulk, stop, back up.. would not want to go forward so I decided to give him a year off. And when I started to treat him for ulcers.. it was amazing how different he became. He was like a totally different horse.. so much softer, responsive, and seems so much happier. I do keep him on all natural Aloe vera juice per my vets recommendations as maintenance and he has been great.
Thank you very much, I feel better now :)
I have never had any luck with aloe vera, I would suggest looking at getting him some omeprazole for race days.
I have one she is an internalizer big time worrier, I give her omeprazole (I use the stuff Douglas sells ) the day of for evening jackpots, for weekend races, I give the day before, days of, and day after. I also make sure she has hay in front of her 24/7.
It may be beneficial to look at something a little stronger then aloe Vera on the days of competition
Maddock, thank you so much!
Cheryl, I used Omeprazole for two months to heal his ulcers. I have been using the all Natural Aloe vera from the Whole Foods, he has been on it for 3-4 months and it works great. I give him a cup a day, and a slow feeder. Before he wouldn't run at all.. he would refuse his patterns.. even in practice. Since I started the treatments, I don't have any issues with him at all. He's willing to work.
If you look at the testing, Aloe Vera has been the most effectively tested product out there for controlling and healing ulcers. Even my three year old colt gets it. | |
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