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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
 
| Ok so my gelding is the polar opposite of my mare. She's stiff and super ratey(this is also the horse that I learned on), my geldings a little more free but still what I would consider a push style horse BUT Super bendy. I have always had a hard time with my second with him and before it turns into a bad habit I need ideas on how to keep him from getting over bendy and drifting out on the backside.
I want to add that I am looking for someone to take lessons from but at this point am un able to do so with out a long haul, so yes I am aware that that would be the best way of fixing it haha!
Heres the most recent run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DbO5jGWrrg
Edited by LeterBuck 2015-11-12 5:52 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| Also want to add that it is more apparent as we have just started to add speed | |
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
 
Location: Texas | What bit do you run him in? How did the oners before you do on him? Did they have problems?
My first thought is switch him to a Jim warner Hack, but it may be rider error or something he needs corrected in his training. It's hard to tell from the video. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| L and w bits have a fat mullen mouth, work wonderful on those horses.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| My daughter's mare was super bendy. We stuck her in a Jim Warner hack and it helped a lot! | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | A bit change isn't going to help this one. This horse isn't just a bit too noodle. The "bend" that is creating a problem is not true bend. If you watch, the horse's nose comes around, but the bend is only through the head and neck. The rest of this horse's body is completely disengaged and bulging to the outside. My advice (and the only way to truly fix this issue) is to go back and teach this horse to get straight through it's body. I would focus on getting your horse to engage his hind end first and foremost. A horse has to travel with their hips up underneath themselves and stay straight through their body from behind. Even when being, we must maintain a straightness through their body. No matter how much bend we have to the inside of the horse, we must ensure that we are not losing the outside of one. Until your horse learns to carry itself properly and remain engaged and upright in the dry work, I would stay off of the pattern | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
| WrapSnap - 2015-11-12 6:23 PM
A bit change isn't going to help this one. This horse isn't just a bit too noodle. The "bend" that is creating a problem is not true bend. If you watch, the horse's nose comes around, but the bend is only through the head and neck. The rest of this horse's body is completely disengaged and bulging to the outside. My advice (and the only way to truly fix this issue) is to go back and teach this horse to get straight through it's body. I would focus on getting your horse to engage his hind end first and foremost. A horse has to travel with their hips up underneath themselves and stay straight through their body from behind. Even when being, we must maintain a straightness through their body. No matter how much bend we have to the inside of the horse, we must ensure that we are not losing the outside of one. Until your horse learns to carry itself properly and remain engaged and upright in the dry work, I would stay off of the pattern
I agree WrapSnap. If you owned this horse what would your dry work look like? What would you ask the horse to do and how would you ask for it? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| Thank you all for the input. Also I am the only owner who has put him on the pattern, so his bad habits are sadly my creation. Also I agree with the follow up questions to Wrapsnap. | |
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | LeterBuck - 2015-11-12 9:11 PM Thank you all for the input. Also I am the only owner who has put him on the pattern, so his bad habits are sadly my creation. Also I agree with the follow up questions to Wrapsnap.
What is it like when you lope the horse in a circle? Do you think it could be a pain issue? Was it something you noticed as his training went on or did it just start one day?
If you go on youtube you can find lots of good videos with exercises to help get their back end more engaged. I can't remember for sure but I think Wrapsnap filmed some videos that were on here and thought one was an exercise that could be used here? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| He's fine when we lope a circle. It is something that I have noticed for a while but it wasnt until this weekend that I really noticed it. Probably having to do with adding speed? It would be great to find those videos you are talking about
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | First off, let me start by explaining why I have said what I have and what I see from the video that has caused me to do so. From what I can see, the horse seems more balanced on the left lead and in the left turn than he does to the right. The first barrel can certainly be polished up, but doesn't really seem much of an issue. When I watch this horse go across the pen to the 2nd barrel, I see the anticipation of a moment that he quite clearly thinks is going to suck for him. Along about the 9 second mark in the video, his head and nose shoot straight up in the air. At that moment, he has become completely inverted. In doing so, all of his balance has now dropped onto his shoulders and his ribcage and hip are swinging free. This is what creates the slingshot effect of you having his nose tipped into the turn and his body become over bent, thus disengaging essentially everything behind his right shoulder.
In order to correct this, we must teach a horse to go in self carriage. Self carriage is rather self explanatory. In the most basic sense, it means that your horse needs to carry itself. Now more technically, it means that it needs to carry itself properly, with hind end engaged, ribcage and wither lifted and shoulders straight in front of it's hips. If a horse has this sort of carriage when traveling straight across the pen, it is going to already be physically balanced for the turn. Without it, they scramble to do whatever they can out of self preservation.
I will use a series of videos to demonstrate what I would be doing with this horse, the reasoning behind it and will provide a brief description of the horse in each video and why they were being ridden as they were.
In this first video, we see a relatively green6 yr old FG grandson. This horse was just started incredibly late. He was the definition of over bendy by nature. He was a bit lacking in confidence and would lose "forward" when he was apprehensive. As impulsion is the key to all proper bend, we really focused on keeping this horse straight through his body, even in the bends and keeping his hind end engaged at all times. Note that the rider doesn't much worry about the placement of this horse's head, merely that he be straight, soft and forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYLlYzv_nY
As this horse progressed on pattern, he retained a desire to become too round through his head and neck for a little bit, but held a correct position through his body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i462sOjzbxc
Once a horse is going along in the dry work such as the yellow horse above is, I will start introducing more lateral work to their program. Note that any lateral flexion that I ask for is always done while sending this horse forward. I will also ask that the horse become more adjustable in it's stride, doing lengthening and shortening exercises and riding it in a more round carriage overall. The horse in this video did have some TMJ issues that caused him to not always be super steady in the bridle, but it will give you a good general idea of where I would go from the above dry work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUI0S-gAq2c
The mare in this video came to me very strung out. She dropped her front end in preparation for the turn due to an overall lack of balance. While she would not become inverted, she made much the same move that your horse does at the 2nd barrel in your video. This is actually a very forward thinking mare, who is also long of body and very long strided. This video depicts the sort of dry work that comprised her daily routine around her. She would be ridden about this long three or four days a week. Note, in order for one to travel this slowly and in this sort of carriage and do it properly requires a lot of engagement, collection and overall strength. I am providing this video example more for the pivots, and come arounds than I am to say that you should be working your horse this slowly and in this carriage. This video was taken after some time in my program, so won't depict the correction of earlier issues with her dry work, but trust me, the imbalance and disengagement were definitely strong with this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnsNClhTX50
Here is an example of her early on in the fixing of the over bending on pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFlOHcbKAg
This is her as a finished horse, placing 7th in the 21 Race at the NBHA World Show, just a couple of weeks back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vNvMeeJcRo | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| Ok so just to pick your brain more on the pivots and come arounds. I am assuming when saying come around you mean nose tipped to inside as compared to the turn with the slight counter bend. At what time and why would you do more of one or the other, or is is a typically equal ratio the majority of the time? I also notice you seem to use a running martingale most of the time. Is that a typical piece of equipment in your training program or just use as needed?
I have also noticed I am the type of rider who picks to much on her horses(no matter the discipline) I have been working hard this last year to fix that but any words of advice on that.
Also thank you for those videos I find them very helpful. I will have to re watch a few times but I am definitely picking up a few of the things you have pointed out | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | The come arounds are executed with the horse shaped to the inside of the turn, yes. I will start out doing about an equal number of pivots and come arounds per ride. As a horse progresses, they may tell me that they need to do more pivots, or if they hang a bit in their turns, I will do more come arounds than pivots. It really ends up being a bit of customizing the ride depending on that specific horse's needs. With most horses, I might do this sort of work one, or two days a week. As for the running martingle, that again depends upon the horse. You'll pretty well never see me put one on a horse who is lacking in bend, as I feel that they restrict lateral flexion. For one that wants to get overly bent and attempts to evade the contact by bringing their nose around too far, I will probably have a set of rings on every day. The way that I use them, I feel that they only actually engage if the horse so chooses.
ETA: I am a "picker" by nature, as well. It can be a very counter productive habit. For me, I have to set guidelines for myself with each horse. There are certain things that while I may not like for a horse to do, so long as it is not disturbing the ride, I force myself to leave alone. Then there are things that I know a particular horse is never allowed to do and those things I am allowed to correct as often as needed. I think that one of the biggest things that I try to focus on when making corrections is to "Get in, get out and get over it". Make your correction, do it concisely and then move on as though nothing ever happened. I am a firm believer that if we do not allow a horse to make some mistakes and to learn their own lessons as a result of those mistakes, they never truly learn to think for themselves.
Edited by WrapSnap 2015-11-12 11:06 PM
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 Member
Posts: 36
Location: BRITISH COLUMBIA CANADA | I have an ex-reiner that is a noodle. I was having the exact same problem. In my slow work I have been going up to my barrel, stopping him at my rate point (the imaginary line that runs from first to third) and I am coming in way closer to the barrel than I was, as he doesn't need a lot of pocket. Then as I walk/trot/ or lope him around the barrel I make him take an extra stride before going to the next barrel to make sure he is finishing his turn. Then on to second barrel where I again stop him at my rate point (the imaginary line between second and third) then when you go around that barrel circle it a few times until he is going all the way around it at the same equal distance and take the extra stride before going to third. its almost like overturning, but once you add speed your horse will finish his turns. Do the same on third.
If I am approaching my barrel at a trot, I walk around the barrel, If at a lope I will trot around the barrel. One gait slower. Just remember to keep equal distance all the way around or turn it again til he/she does it properly then take the extra stride and finish your turn before moving to the next barrel.
Hope this helps. Its been making the world of difference for my "noodle" horse and I.
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| WrapSnap - 2015-11-12 10:14 PM
First off, let me start by explaining why I have said what I have and what I see from the video that has caused me to do so. From what I can see, the horse seems more balanced on the left lead and in the left turn than he does to the right. The first barrel can certainly be polished up, but doesn't really seem much of an issue. When I watch this horse go across the pen to the 2nd barrel, I see the anticipation of a moment that he quite clearly thinks is going to suck for him. Along about the 9 second mark in the video, his head and nose shoot straight up in the air. At that moment, he has become completely inverted. In doing so, all of his balance has now dropped onto his shoulders and his ribcage and hip are swinging free. This is what creates the slingshot effect of you having his nose tipped into the turn and his body become over bent, thus disengaging essentially everything behind his right shoulder.
In order to correct this, we must teach a horse to go in self carriage. Self carriage is rather self explanatory. In the most basic sense, it means that your horse needs to carry itself. Now more technically, it means that it needs to carry itself properly, with hind end engaged, ribcage and wither lifted and shoulders straight in front of it's hips. If a horse has this sort of carriage when traveling straight across the pen, it is going to already be physically balanced for the turn. Without it, they scramble to do whatever they can out of self preservation.
I will use a series of videos to demonstrate what I would be doing with this horse, the reasoning behind it and will provide a brief description of the horse in each video and why they were being ridden as they were.
In this first video, we see a relatively green6 yr old FG grandson. This horse was just started incredibly late. He was the definition of over bendy by nature. He was a bit lacking in confidence and would lose "forward" when he was apprehensive. As impulsion is the key to all proper bend, we really focused on keeping this horse straight through his body, even in the bends and keeping his hind end engaged at all times. Note that the rider doesn't much worry about the placement of this horse's head, merely that he be straight, soft and forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYLlYzv_nY
As this horse progressed on pattern, he retained a desire to become too round through his head and neck for a little bit, but held a correct position through his body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i462sOjzbxc
Once a horse is going along in the dry work such as the yellow horse above is, I will start introducing more lateral work to their program. Note that any lateral flexion that I ask for is always done while sending this horse forward. I will also ask that the horse become more adjustable in it's stride, doing lengthening and shortening exercises and riding it in a more round carriage overall. The horse in this video did have some TMJ issues that caused him to not always be super steady in the bridle, but it will give you a good general idea of where I would go from the above dry work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUI0S-gAq2c
The mare in this video came to me very strung out. She dropped her front end in preparation for the turn due to an overall lack of balance. While she would not become inverted, she made much the same move that your horse does at the 2nd barrel in your video. This is actually a very forward thinking mare, who is also long of body and very long strided. This video depicts the sort of dry work that comprised her daily routine around her. She would be ridden about this long three or four days a week. Note, in order for one to travel this slowly and in this sort of carriage and do it properly requires a lot of engagement, collection and overall strength. I am providing this video example more for the pivots, and come arounds than I am to say that you should be working your horse this slowly and in this carriage. This video was taken after some time in my program, so won't depict the correction of earlier issues with her dry work, but trust me, the imbalance and disengagement were definitely strong with this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnsNClhTX50
Here is an example of her early on in the fixing of the over bending on pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFlOHcbKAg
This is her as a finished horse, placing 7th in the 21 Race at the NBHA World Show, just a couple of weeks back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vNvMeeJcRo
This is amazing the change the mare made .. I want mine to turn just like her , she's too bendy as well resulting in her throwing her butt around her front end .. How long did it take before this mare became so solid ? I will start doing the dry work with my mare that you did with her .. I'd do anything to get her using herself like that mare | |
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 Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| Thank you for the detailed tips ... gives me something to consider because I have a horse that can be kinda stiff going into the turn and bendy coming out. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | Fancy Lass - 2015-11-14 11:20 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-11-12 10:14 PM
First off, let me start by explaining why I have said what I have and what I see from the video that has caused me to do so. From what I can see, the horse seems more balanced on the left lead and in the left turn than he does to the right. The first barrel can certainly be polished up, but doesn't really seem much of an issue. When I watch this horse go across the pen to the 2nd barrel, I see the anticipation of a moment that he quite clearly thinks is going to suck for him. Along about the 9 second mark in the video, his head and nose shoot straight up in the air. At that moment, he has become completely inverted. In doing so, all of his balance has now dropped onto his shoulders and his ribcage and hip are swinging free. This is what creates the slingshot effect of you having his nose tipped into the turn and his body become over bent, thus disengaging essentially everything behind his right shoulder.
In order to correct this, we must teach a horse to go in self carriage. Self carriage is rather self explanatory. In the most basic sense, it means that your horse needs to carry itself. Now more technically, it means that it needs to carry itself properly, with hind end engaged, ribcage and wither lifted and shoulders straight in front of it's hips. If a horse has this sort of carriage when traveling straight across the pen, it is going to already be physically balanced for the turn. Without it, they scramble to do whatever they can out of self preservation.
I will use a series of videos to demonstrate what I would be doing with this horse, the reasoning behind it and will provide a brief description of the horse in each video and why they were being ridden as they were.
In this first video, we see a relatively green6 yr old FG grandson. This horse was just started incredibly late. He was the definition of over bendy by nature. He was a bit lacking in confidence and would lose "forward" when he was apprehensive. As impulsion is the key to all proper bend, we really focused on keeping this horse straight through his body, even in the bends and keeping his hind end engaged at all times. Note that the rider doesn't much worry about the placement of this horse's head, merely that he be straight, soft and forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYLlYzv_nY
As this horse progressed on pattern, he retained a desire to become too round through his head and neck for a little bit, but held a correct position through his body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i462sOjzbxc
Once a horse is going along in the dry work such as the yellow horse above is, I will start introducing more lateral work to their program. Note that any lateral flexion that I ask for is always done while sending this horse forward. I will also ask that the horse become more adjustable in it's stride, doing lengthening and shortening exercises and riding it in a more round carriage overall. The horse in this video did have some TMJ issues that caused him to not always be super steady in the bridle, but it will give you a good general idea of where I would go from the above dry work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUI0S-gAq2c
The mare in this video came to me very strung out. She dropped her front end in preparation for the turn due to an overall lack of balance. While she would not become inverted, she made much the same move that your horse does at the 2nd barrel in your video. This is actually a very forward thinking mare, who is also long of body and very long strided. This video depicts the sort of dry work that comprised her daily routine around her. She would be ridden about this long three or four days a week. Note, in order for one to travel this slowly and in this sort of carriage and do it properly requires a lot of engagement, collection and overall strength. I am providing this video example more for the pivots, and come arounds than I am to say that you should be working your horse this slowly and in this carriage. This video was taken after some time in my program, so won't depict the correction of earlier issues with her dry work, but trust me, the imbalance and disengagement were definitely strong with this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnsNClhTX50
Here is an example of her early on in the fixing of the over bending on pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFlOHcbKAg
This is her as a finished horse, placing 7th in the 21 Race at the NBHA World Show, just a couple of weeks back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vNvMeeJcRo
This is amazing the change the mare made .. I want mine to turn just like her , she's too bendy as well resulting in her throwing her butt around her front end .. How long did it take before this mare became so solid ? I will start doing the dry work with my mare that you did with her .. I'd do anything to get her using herself like that mare
This mare's seasoning process was not exactly your typical sort of deal. Two weeks after the first video of her on pattern, I turned her over to her owner to run. They spent a few months loping through to 2 seconds off, just focusing on making it all correct. From there, we let her have one gear and they won the 3D pretty consistently. They probably spent a year there. The next year, they won the 2D more often than not. That year, either myself, or one of my youth kids would occasionally make a run on her and she was always well up in the 1D locally and Top of 2D at World type shows. I took back over on her last year and she's been working like this while making 1D runs ever since. She always made the same three turns, no matter the speed, but I honestly think that for this mare, slowly building up as they did allowed her to remain so solid without needing to be tuned on and held together. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| WrapSnap - 2015-11-14 12:37 PM
Fancy Lass - 2015-11-14 11:20 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-11-12 10:14 PM
First off, let me start by explaining why I have said what I have and what I see from the video that has caused me to do so. From what I can see, the horse seems more balanced on the left lead and in the left turn than he does to the right. The first barrel can certainly be polished up, but doesn't really seem much of an issue. When I watch this horse go across the pen to the 2nd barrel, I see the anticipation of a moment that he quite clearly thinks is going to suck for him. Along about the 9 second mark in the video, his head and nose shoot straight up in the air. At that moment, he has become completely inverted. In doing so, all of his balance has now dropped onto his shoulders and his ribcage and hip are swinging free. This is what creates the slingshot effect of you having his nose tipped into the turn and his body become over bent, thus disengaging essentially everything behind his right shoulder.
In order to correct this, we must teach a horse to go in self carriage. Self carriage is rather self explanatory. In the most basic sense, it means that your horse needs to carry itself. Now more technically, it means that it needs to carry itself properly, with hind end engaged, ribcage and wither lifted and shoulders straight in front of it's hips. If a horse has this sort of carriage when traveling straight across the pen, it is going to already be physically balanced for the turn. Without it, they scramble to do whatever they can out of self preservation.
I will use a series of videos to demonstrate what I would be doing with this horse, the reasoning behind it and will provide a brief description of the horse in each video and why they were being ridden as they were.
In this first video, we see a relatively green6 yr old FG grandson. This horse was just started incredibly late. He was the definition of over bendy by nature. He was a bit lacking in confidence and would lose "forward" when he was apprehensive. As impulsion is the key to all proper bend, we really focused on keeping this horse straight through his body, even in the bends and keeping his hind end engaged at all times. Note that the rider doesn't much worry about the placement of this horse's head, merely that he be straight, soft and forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfYLlYzv_nY
As this horse progressed on pattern, he retained a desire to become too round through his head and neck for a little bit, but held a correct position through his body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i462sOjzbxc
Once a horse is going along in the dry work such as the yellow horse above is, I will start introducing more lateral work to their program. Note that any lateral flexion that I ask for is always done while sending this horse forward. I will also ask that the horse become more adjustable in it's stride, doing lengthening and shortening exercises and riding it in a more round carriage overall. The horse in this video did have some TMJ issues that caused him to not always be super steady in the bridle, but it will give you a good general idea of where I would go from the above dry work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUI0S-gAq2c
The mare in this video came to me very strung out. She dropped her front end in preparation for the turn due to an overall lack of balance. While she would not become inverted, she made much the same move that your horse does at the 2nd barrel in your video. This is actually a very forward thinking mare, who is also long of body and very long strided. This video depicts the sort of dry work that comprised her daily routine around her. She would be ridden about this long three or four days a week. Note, in order for one to travel this slowly and in this sort of carriage and do it properly requires a lot of engagement, collection and overall strength. I am providing this video example more for the pivots, and come arounds than I am to say that you should be working your horse this slowly and in this carriage. This video was taken after some time in my program, so won't depict the correction of earlier issues with her dry work, but trust me, the imbalance and disengagement were definitely strong with this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnsNClhTX50
Here is an example of her early on in the fixing of the over bending on pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFlOHcbKAg
This is her as a finished horse, placing 7th in the 21 Race at the NBHA World Show, just a couple of weeks back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vNvMeeJcRo
This is amazing the change the mare made .. I want mine to turn just like her , she's too bendy as well resulting in her throwing her butt around her front end .. How long did it take before this mare became so solid ? I will start doing the dry work with my mare that you did with her .. I'd do anything to get her using herself like that mare
This mare's seasoning process was not exactly your typical sort of deal. Two weeks after the first video of her on pattern, I turned her over to her owner to run. They spent a few months loping through to 2 seconds off, just focusing on making it all correct. From there, we let her have one gear and they won the 3D pretty consistently. They probably spent a year there. The next year, they won the 2D more often than not. That year, either myself, or one of my youth kids would occasionally make a run on her and she was always well up in the 1D locally and Top of 2D at World type shows. I took back over on her last year and she's been working like this while making 1D runs ever since. She always made the same three turns, no matter the speed, but I honestly think that for this mare, slowly building up as they did allowed her to remain so solid without needing to be tuned on and held together.
This is where I am at with my mare . I need to go & slow her down to a lope & keep her correct . Then slowly build on it until she learns to stay correct . I'll have to settle for 2d / 3 d times for now , until she's ready to run full out & keep her body right . | |
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