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Married to a Louie Lover
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We're getting ready to do my guy's hocks for the second time this year. He's just now getting sore again but not back to were he was the first time we did them. It's been about 5.5 months.
In the spring I'm going to get xrays done to see exactly what we are dealing with and make a decision about his future. I can handle the idea of the injecting 2x's a year, once pre and once mid season. Much more than that and I start to question whether or not it's worth it for the horses future. I've seen horses who got the crap injected out of them to keep competing now living as pasture cripples, and I don't want that for my guy.
How often do you inject? | |
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 Saint Stacey
  
| Right now, one is done every 6 months like clockwork. But she's fusing. Once that's done it shouldn't be near as often. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I have one that get them about every 10 months. I give him Polyglycan and Pentosan, vet feels that is helping the injections last longer. Probably costs about the same to inject twice a year and inject once and give the injectables but I don't like going into those hocks more than I have too. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Daughters good mare, did 2x's last year...but right now, we are doing them 2 times...right before we haul to our NBHA State show, then right before we haul To NBHA World show. She is not showing signs, but last year she wasn't either...got there and I think it had been 7 months plus the concrete and she was lame. I want to do everything to help her this year, so we are going to inject next week plus hauling better mats for the stalls. But don't want to get there and find out. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
Location: Online | I don't. Don't believe in it. Unless there is nothing else I can do and it will make the horse more comfortable so he can be retired to the kids. I will never inject just so I can go hammer my horse longer. I have a 27 year old horse, 3 events for nearly 20 years, never been injected and he's more sound most horses half his age.
I think people inject just because that's what everyone else does. When just a little time off will take care of it most of the time. I realize that some horses have issues and sometimes it's necessary, but too many people use it as a quick, easy, and expensive fix.
(((Zipping up the flame suit.))) | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Well...we're holding off on the hocks for the time being and treating for epm. Not the vet visit outcome I wanted | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | rodeomom13 - 2014-09-30 9:09 AM
I don't. Don't believe in it. Unless there is nothing else I can do and it will make the horse more comfortable so he can be retired to the kids. I will never inject just so I can go hammer my horse longer. I have a 27 year old horse, 3 events for nearly 20 years, never been injected and he's more sound most horses half his age.
I think people inject just because that's what everyone else does. When just a little time off will take care of it most of the time. I realize that some horses have issues and sometimes it's necessary, but too many people use it as a quick, easy, and expensive fix.
(((Zipping up the flame suit.)))
I couldn't agree with this more!! To many people blame hocks for other issues because everyone is quick to inject. My 11 year old has been injected once, granted I don't run him into the ground but he's been running since he was 4/5 and is super healthy and sound. I use chiropractic and massage/laser more then anything. A lot of people don't believe in that either though | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Well I am definitely a fan on injecting but I won't get in on the debate starting here. I don't think you should just go do it just to do it… and i think you should do it as little as you can get away with. But I believe it works. I believe that some people jump into it without reason and aren't scared to inject multiple joints at once. I take every injection seriously and if we need more than two sets of joints done, I split it up over several months to not overlord their system.
We run teenaged horses for the most part.
One mare gets injected 2-3 times a year. She is going to be retired after this year to raise babies. When we bought her she only needed them once or twice a year, and decided to retire her after this year because she's getting older and it's taking more to keep her comfortable.
I have another horse who has one hock that probably needs it only once, maybe twice per year. She has another hock that was injured badly years ago in a fence accident. It healed up really gross and that hock requires more frequent maintenance. Because of that, she does not run as often as the other horses we have. If it's not an important race, she does not go. Sometimes, I leave her home even for important races because my primary goal is to keep her comfortable, so if she is sore- she gets REST.
Our other two horses get injections once or twice a year. But we also firmly believe in resting our horses if they tell us to. Even if it means we lose points that day. I sleep well at night knowing I don't intentionally run a sore horse. Likewise, I won't refuse to inject because I don't want to. there is damaging inflammation in those joints… I treat them and back off and let them get better. | |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | I think a lot (ALL) of us could learn something from Dr. Ramey, please read below. Broaden your knowledge, expand your thinking.
http://www.doctorramey.com/joint-maintenance/
http://www.doctorramey.com/joint-therapies/
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | OhMax - 2014-09-30 6:56 AM We're getting ready to do my guy's hocks for the second time this year. He's just now getting sore again but not back to were he was the first time we did them. It's been about 5.5 months. In the spring I'm going to get xrays done to see exactly what we are dealing with and make a decision about his future. I can handle the idea of the injecting 2x's a year, once pre and once mid season. Much more than that and I start to question whether or not it's worth it for the horses future. I've seen horses who got the crap injected out of them to keep competing now living as pasture cripples, and I don't want that for my guy. How often do you inject?
Just totally curious, and maybe you can clarify: Have you never x-ray'ed his hocks yet? Or are you just doing new ones in the spring?
*IF* you injected his hocks without doing x-rays first ..... well I'll just keep my mouth shut.
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | My race horse gelding was done in February of this year. Haven't had to do him since. He will probably get done again in February if he needs it. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| rodeomom13 - 2014-09-30 9:09 AM
I don't. Don't believe in it. Unless there is nothing else I can do and it will make the horse more comfortable so he can be retired to the kids. I will never inject just so I can go hammer my horse longer. I have a 27 year old horse, 3 events for nearly 20 years, never been injected and he's more sound most horses half his age.
I think people inject just because that's what everyone else does. When just a little time off will take care of it most of the time. I realize that some horses have issues and sometimes it's necessary, but too many people use it as a quick, easy, and expensive fix.
(((Zipping up the flame suit.)))
I can agree with some of this.
Too many times do I see a spoiled ill broke horse getting injected to "fix" everything. This does happen.
However, my hope is just that everyone takes care of their horses to the best of their ability if you expect them to work for you.
I inject, do numerous therapy treatments, feed supplements, etc... but be educated about it. Get x rays and second opinions, and KNOW your horse. My horses have made runs from Florida to California this year and every where in between. I want them to feel good and have the best care. They are on supplements to compliment their individual needs. They see a vet when they are not "right", if injecting is the answer, well then that is that. Most importantly, I let my horses be HORSES as often as I can. I turn them OUT, I let them eat. Keep your horses happy, KNOW THEM, know what they need, educate yourself! | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| CheckItOut - 2014-09-30 11:05 AM rodeomom13 - 2014-09-30 9:09 AM I don't. Don't believe in it. Unless there is nothing else I can do and it will make the horse more comfortable so he can be retired to the kids. I will never inject just so I can go hammer my horse longer. I have a 27 year old horse, 3 events for nearly 20 years, never been injected and he's more sound most horses half his age.
I think people inject just because that's what everyone else does. When just a little time off will take care of it most of the time. I realize that some horses have issues and sometimes it's necessary, but too many people use it as a quick, easy, and expensive fix.
(((Zipping up the flame suit.))) I can agree with some of this. Too many times do I see a spoiled ill broke horse getting injected to "fix" everything. This does happen. However, my hope is just that everyone takes care of their horses to the best of their ability if you expect them to work for you. I inject, do numerous therapy treatments, feed supplements, etc... but be educated about it. Get x rays and second opinions, and KNOW your horse. My horses have made runs from Florida to California this year and every where in between. I want them to feel good and have the best care. They are on supplements to compliment their individual needs. They see a vet when they are not "right", if injecting is the answer, well then that is that. Most importantly, I let my horses be HORSES as often as I can. I turn them OUT, I let them eat. Keep your horses happy, KNOW THEM, know what they need, educate yourself!
This^^. When my horses do need injecting I can feel and see a huge difference in their performance. | |
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  JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | My 16+hand boy does have spurs in both hocks. I inject him about once a year give or take. He lets me know. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
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I read his blogs, and honestly it makes him not creditable. He is not supporting his opinion by facts or references, the information is too vague.
In the first article he says there is no injection proven to improve the joint, actually trimisclinone (sp) the research is showing in the studies it has been used in cartilage in the joints has repaired.
Adequan IA has shown in the trials it promotes cartilage growth in joints, why this isn't being used much as in the same studies 1:2 joints becomes infected (early 2000) I have heard but have not seen the lastest research showing the infection rate lower.
Equine clinical pharmacology text is where this info is from
I am one who will inject as a preventative, one example is a 2 yr old has a very traumatic injury where xrays show blood in 2 joints, the vet is waiting till the blood breaks down, then he will flush and inject with HA. This is to prevent arthritis from developing.
I am also one who will not let a vet inject my horse without a reason validated by X-ray, fluoroscope, or ultrasound. I also want to know what he is injecting into each joint. I know the risks of all the procedures, the infection rates, I prefer a 7 min scrub to the quick clean technique as it has been shown majority of bacteria is not killed by chemicals but removed mechanically with doing the seven min scrub.
As a horse owner most people don't understand we actually put our horses more at risk with just the sedation, how many people can say they know all the potential complications of the sedatives. I had the vet who routinely floats my horses teeth lie to me about the possible side effects of one of the drugs he used, or he himself didn't know about the drug. Sadly I now need to find another dentist | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| Lets not forget that different joints can handle different frequencies of injections. Hocks are a low motion joint, so really you can inject them as often as they need it with less long term consequences. Compare that to say coffin joints or knees where repeated injections can, and will, give relief but the consequence over time is that it will make the arthritis worse. This was all explained to me by my vet. Horses were not meant to run barrels or do the type of work we ask of them. My vet knows of cutting horse ranches that have hocks and knees done twice a year starting with 2 years olds just because. The biggest risk with injections is infection and flare. For this reason I haul my horses to the vet clinic which is more of a sterile place to do it. Not sterile, but certainly better than my dusty ranch. I do give polyglycan and pentosan as well, but I have no problems injecting if need be. | |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | cheryl makofka - 2014-09-30 11:17 AM I read his blogs, and honestly it makes him not creditable. He is not supporting his opinion by facts or references, the information is too vague. In the first article he says there is no injection proven to improve the joint, actually trimisclinone (sp ) the research is showing in the studies it has been used in cartilage in the joints has repaired. Adequan IA has shown in the trials it promotes cartilage growth in joints, why this isn't being used much as in the same studies 1:2 joints becomes infected (early 2000 ) I have heard but have not seen the lastest research showing the infection rate lower. Equine clinical pharmacology text is where this info is from I am one who will inject as a preventative, one example is a 2 yr old has a very traumatic injury where xrays show blood in 2 joints, the vet is waiting till the blood breaks down, then he will flush and inject with HA. This is to prevent arthritis from developing. I am also one who will not let a vet inject my horse without a reason validated by X-ray, fluoroscope, or ultrasound. I also want to know what he is injecting into each joint. I know the risks of all the procedures, the infection rates, I prefer a 7 min scrub to the quick clean technique as it has been shown majority of bacteria is not killed by chemicals but removed mechanically with doing the seven min scrub. As a horse owner most people don't understand we actually put our horses more at risk with just the sedation, how many people can say they know all the potential complications of the sedatives. I had the vet who routinely floats my horses teeth lie to me about the possible side effects of one of the drugs he used, or he himself didn't know about the drug. Sadly I now need to find another dentist
I believe he is credibile to a point. I know what helps my horses, fortunately neither of them need a whole lot, 1 has been injected twice in the last 2 and half years, one the first time in his entire 15 years. The point I was trying to make with Dr. Ramey's articles is that most importantly, have the horses in shape and give them rest when needed. Utilize medicine when absolutely necessary and to the best of it's ability. I use pentosan to lenghten the time between injections-you know why?? Because both horses that are on it have arthritis. I believe for me, it helps, others won't even consider it. Cheryl, we agree very much about a lot of things. | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | casualdust07 - 2014-09-30 10:42 AM Well I am definitely a fan on injecting but I won't get in on the debate starting here. I don't think you should just go do it just to do it… and i think you should do it as little as you can get away with. But I believe it works. I believe that some people jump into it without reason and aren't scared to inject multiple joints at once. I take every injection seriously and if we need more than two sets of joints done, I split it up over several months to not overlord their system. We run teenaged horses for the most part. One mare gets injected 2-3 times a year. She is going to be retired after this year to raise babies. When we bought her she only needed them once or twice a year, and decided to retire her after this year because she's getting older and it's taking more to keep her comfortable. I have another horse who has one hock that probably needs it only once, maybe twice per year. She has another hock that was injured badly years ago in a fence accident. It healed up really gross and that hock requires more frequent maintenance. Because of that, she does not run as often as the other horses we have. If it's not an important race, she does not go. Sometimes, I leave her home even for important races because my primary goal is to keep her comfortable, so if she is sore- she gets REST. Our other two horses get injections once or twice a year. But we also firmly believe in resting our horses if they tell us to. Even if it means we lose points that day. I sleep well at night knowing I don't intentionally run a sore horse. Likewise, I won't refuse to inject because I don't want to. there is damaging inflammation in those joints… I treat them and back off and let them get better.
I have to agree with your approach... I don't believe in injecting unless you know damn good and well what is going on in the joint and exactly how injecting will help. If some time off will help, then do that instead.
Injections have their place, there are those that definitely overdo it......but if your horse hurts and it can help, then do it.
FIRST OF ALL - KNOW YOUR HORSE, and do some research!
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Agree and disagree with some of what's been said. That being said and I'll reiterate it - vet did not feel our issues stemmed from sore hocks again but rather a case of epm. I don't disagree and when you put the past few weeks together it's fairly obvious. He felt the horses hocks would be fine once the epm was treated. And probably wouldn't need reinjecting until next spring if then.
Everything I do is at the advice of my vet. I at the time of the initial injections I specifically asked if he was going to X-ray and he said if I really wanted them, but from what he saw in the horse it wasn't likely to change his opinion, flame me if you want for that it wouldn't be the first time.
I trust my vet, otherwise he wouldn't be my vet. If you like his advice great, if you don't, well he's not your vet so that's okay too. I have seen a number of people on this board reccomend him by name though so he must be doing something right. | |
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