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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
  
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rockinas - 2016-11-02 11:19 AM
I have gotten a few bales here & there with horses I have purchased and brought up here.   The bales always look good and smell good, and the horses that don't know any better do eat it. Seems like as soon as those horses start eating the native hay that we put up, they will turn their noses up @ the coastal.  I have thrown coastal bales out to our cattle because the horses wouldn't eat it, and the cattle just crapped on it and used it for bedding.  And cattle will eat most anything (think straw and corn stalks). I figure that is a pretty good test of how bad it is, if the cattle won't even touch it. 
LMAO!!!!!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
 
Location: Willows, CA | Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Tdove is mostly right here, in my opinion. Taken one issue at a time, I will start with Coastal Bermuda hay. The comment that it is not all the same is very true. The best quality true Coastal can be used in a good overall diet with a few considerations. You have heard me say before that the best use of your feed dollar is better hay. That means that additional support becomes both less costly and less important because less is needed if the foundation of your horses diet, the roughage, is of high quality. The only times I have personally seen horses have impactions on Coastal there have been other factors in place. Most commonly this will be a teeth issue, causing a sore mouth, that makes it uncomfortable for the horse to chew as much as they normally would. Coastal is tougher and harder to break up. When this happens the tough strands of coastal do not get properly broken up by complete chewing and have the potential to wrap around each other starting the nucleus of an obstruction that then gets bigger until it causes an impaction. I have never seen a horse with proper dental care and plenty of good clean water available have an impaction from Coastal Bermuda. Some alfalfa in the diet will benefit the digestion of coastal, and I usually recommend that in the diets that I do. It is true that the sugar levels in Alfalfa are typically lower than most coastal, that also depends on when the Coastal was cut.
As to added oils in the diet. I always take those out, and feel that refined oil added in any significant amount is both disruptive to the diet, and poorly handled by the system. Natural vegetable fat stabilized in its original form with accompanying natural fiber is easily digested by the horses system. The reason for this fact is the naturally occurring levels of fat found in every roughage. It is and always been natural in the horses diet. Supplementing additional vegetable fat in a full fiber form, within reason causes no issues to digestive efficiency. In fact, adding natural vegetable fats, in a natural form means that you can eliminate a lot of grain based starches and sugars that are much more disruptive to the system at the higher amounts that they are commonly fed.
Lastly, Omega 3 supplementation is good to a point, but remember that even cured hays can contain quite a bit of omega 3 in relation to omega 6. This ratio can be overwhelmed if you feed a lot of grain, and in those diets additional omega 3 may benefit. If you do not feed a lot of grain, your O3/O6 ratio should be pretty good, and additional needs for Omega 3 should be minor.
Edited by winwillows 2016-11-02 12:29 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this?
Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Â I'm not sure about other areas, but in Florida it has a very high chance of causing colic. I have had 4 very highly recommended vets tell me NEVER feed it. I know people that have fed it with no problems but I have personally known MORE that have eventually had an issue. It has never been worth the risk to me. I have fed Jiggs, which I was told is a natural mutation of a coastal grass...I don't know if that's true. I am blessed with grass, so the only time I hay is when we haul, or if we get an early freeze (it happens sometimes in Florida). Then I buy T&A | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | RnRJack - 2016-11-02 1:37 PM
Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya ) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this?
Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too.
I am not aware of any reason you would need to lower starch levels for a horse with heaves? It is the dust and mold spores that are a concern. Processed oats can be very dusty. Really clean whole oats can be very little dust. Yes, oats themselves are high in NSC, but it really is total NSC of the diet that is of any concern. To prove my point, the Seminole feed in question has oats as an ingredient, albeit in very low percentage. Most horses do not have a problem with NSC levels. Only ones with metabolic disorders really require a low starch diet. This does not mean I am advocating a high starch diet either (I am not). Just the low starch can be overdone, unless the horse has specific low starch needs.
I must say, I don't personally agree with that Seminole feed formulation. Parts of it I like. It does appear to contain a lot of flax. However, 14% fat is too high (again, my opinion) for a feed that the median feeding rate is 8lbs (2-3 lbs would be fine). I also think the starch is lower than needs to be, unless you have a horse that needs that low of starch. It would be a good choice for a PSSM horse.
Edited by Tdove 2016-11-02 2:42 PM
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Tdove - 2016-11-02 3:40 PM RnRJack - 2016-11-02 1:37 PM Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here) And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed. Thoughts/views? Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions. Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay. As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal. On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much. Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya ) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this? Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too. I am not aware of any reason you would need to lower starch levels for a horse with heaves? It is the dust and mold spores that are a concern. Processed oats can be very dusty. Really clean whole oats can be very little dust. Yes, oats themselves are high in NSC, but it really is total NSC of the diet that is of any concern. To prove my point, the Seminole feed in question has oats as an ingredient, albeit in very low percentage. Most horses do not have a problem with NSC levels. Only ones with metabolic disorders really require a low starch diet. This does not mean I am advocating a high starch diet either (I am not ). Just the low starch can be overdone, unless the horse has specific low starch needs. I must say, I don't personally agree with that Seminole feed formulation. Parts of it I like. It does appear to contain a lot of flax. However, 14% fat is too high (again, my opinion ) for a feed that the median feeding rate is 8lbs (2-3 lbs would be fine ). I also think the starch is lower than needs to be, unless you have a horse that needs that low of starch. It would be a good choice for a PSSM horse.
One of the main reasons a lot of people feed Seminole - it is a totally medication free mill. The only one we have to choose from in this area. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I hate switchIng feeds but I'm trying to keep all the horses on the same feed if I can help it. That was another big reason I like the Seminole feeds because they don't mix the medications together. The fat content is high to me also but I do ride 5-6 days a week and my horses don't get to fat. I'm sure they burn it off.
My question now would be, can I still supplement my dac racehorse formula vitamin in with the dynasport. It has the vitamin K for my bleeder!
And based on these facts should I just cut the oil? I use dac oil and cocoa soya | |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | Three 4 Luck - 2016-11-02 11:14 AM
I have always fed a bermuda hay because that's the only quality hay available where I live. Â Most of it is Tifton (there are several versions of Tifton), some Alicia. Â When I have it tested, it usually comes back around 14% protein. Â Some years the quality wasn't as good, but I stopped buying from that grower. Â They eat this stuff like it's candy and with a slow feeder box or net they waste nothing. Â I do worry about the old horse who has a lot of teeth missing because I can't keep him out of the hay and he poops out half digested wads that weren't chewed properly. Â The slow feeder helps with that because he has to take smaller bites, and I have moved that group of horses to a net rather than the box to slow him down as much as possible. Â I supplement with a relatively small amount of alfalfa cubes (the old guy gets a lot more and his are soaked), and they're usually on pasture as well. Â
I wonder if horses that are raised on this type hay do better than those who were introduced to it later?
I live within a few miles of Three Four Luck -- so I feed the same hay as she. I've never had any colic issues -- and I've been feeding horses 50+ years. I do provide my horses with heated water tubs to encourage good hydration during the fall / winter months when they are eating lots of hay and my horses stay turned out most all the time. My pastures are mostly Bermuda. I do sprinkle in a bit of alfalfa, but very minimally. My horses also eat a pelleted feed and get a daily supplement (Animed's Ulc R Aid). During all my decades of feeding horses, I can remember two cases of gas colic that resolved quickly.
Several of my horses were 'imports' who moved here from such places as Arizona, Maryland, Nebraska...... so I don't think growing up with or without Bermuda hay made any difference. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I lived in Illinois for 46 years and my dad raised quarter horses. He always had at least 30 horses and many times had as many as 45. He fed timothy/alfalfa mixed hay and corn and oats. I can count on my one hand how many times we had a horse colic and it was always gas colic. He lost one that he had bought from Texas and within a month he died and they opened him up and he was loaded and impacted with worms. He got sick right after he was tube wormed. They said he had a huge die off of worms.
Then we move to Texas and Holy Hell...We moved to the state of colic with many being impactions so yes...I feel it is the fine coastal hay in most instances.
Like someone said...there are many different varieties of coastal and it is the fine stemmed I stay away from. Love Tifton but it's hard to find down where I am.
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | So what is the BEST hay out there? I've heard straight Timothy is the healthiest hay horses can have but mine turn their nose up to it! I've always done straight alfalfa I just supplement coastal for busy work, so is Timothy the best? | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-11-02 11:14 AM
I have always fed a bermuda hay because that's the only quality hay available where I live. Â Most of it is Tifton (there are several versions of Tifton), some Alicia. Â When I have it tested, it usually comes back around 14% protein. Â Some years the quality wasn't as good, but I stopped buying from that grower. Â They eat this stuff like it's candy and with a slow feeder box or net they waste nothing. Â I do worry about the old horse who has a lot of teeth missing because I can't keep him out of the hay and he poops out half digested wads that weren't chewed properly. Â The slow feeder helps with that because he has to take smaller bites, and I have moved that group of horses to a net rather than the box to slow him down as much as possible. Â I supplement with a relatively small amount of alfalfa cubes (the old guy gets a lot more and his are soaked), and they're usually on pasture as well. Â
I wonder if horses that are raised on this type hay do better than those who were introduced to it later?
I'm of course in your area and have the same issues. It's just what mine have always eaten and thank the good Lord we're doing ok, even Dan. His hay is more for something to do cause he just chews it and spits it out. | |
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