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 Expert
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Location: MN | The ground that this horse is out in is FLAT frozen ground and there are NO frozen piles of crap whatsoever, or uneven spots. I took him to this barn because I am very fussy with my animals and this is the nicest cleanest ones around, and when he did go outside, it was only for 4-5 TOPS, then back inside to a fluffy heated boxstall, and NOT blame the shoer?? are you kidding me? this horses feet were warm! would any of you want to use this farrier after describing what happened? yet some say it's not his fault, the farrier himself said he saw no problem with this horses sole when he initially trimmed him, I did not stand over hius shoulder and babysit him to see exactly what he was doing and to se if he was digging away my horses foot, but from now on, with any farrier, I guess I am gonna have to. Then you say not to put a shoe back on? What and let him keep having pressure on his foot? and the snow ball pad is helping keep anything from going up and putting pressure on what sole he does have left. The grain he is on is not to blame either, it is low carb Safechoice, and when he came to me, he was sound, and when he went to Diane he was sound, so anyone saying the shoer is not to blame better rethink the position, I have had many shoes pued in the winter here in MN on all my horses and their feet don't come up hot!! | |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | alrighty then............
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Expert
Posts: 1258
Location: MN | cheryl makofka - 2014-12-08 2:20 PM
dianeguinn - 2014-12-08 1:52 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-12-07 10:30 AM
I wouldn't be blaming the farrier for a few reasons
If the horse had shoes on for a lengthy time even on soft ground without shoes they can become sore.
When the shoes got pulled you rode the horse within a few days, you never gave the horse time to adjust to no shoes and even this alone can cause enough stress for a sensitive horse to develop laminitis and founder.
Even if the ground is soft all it takes is one hard spot, one rock, etc can cause bruising which can cause heat and worst case can cause founder.
If this was my horse I would be anticipating abscesses occuring. I wouldn't have put pads on as now you are not able to poultice the feet. I would have packed the feet with magic cushion as it has anti inflammatory properties and poulticing properties. I would also discuss with a vet about banamine for a few days to keep inflammation out of the feet.
I would be blaming the farrier, pure and simple. This was my horse she bought and he's never taken a lame step his whole life, barefoot or not and has had a myriad of shoers. He does NOT have thin soles unless this idiot pared so much away that he does now. She's keeping him in a stall and riding in an indoor, not on frozen ground. You should see the shoes he put on this poor horse. They're at least two sizes too small and has his toe run out to the front. Looks like to me he could have looked at the shoes he pulled off and known what size to put back on him, and any decent farrier I know, knows not to trim them much when they pull shoes off. They usually just rasp the edges a little. This was incompetence, pure and simple, and she has every right to be furious at the farrier. When a horse gets so bad that he is foundering from the pain, that is definitely his fault. He should have known better. He cut him so short he barely has any foot left.
Diane you may know a little more then us
But she said she is turning him out in a paddock with frozen ground. The frozen ground can cause bruising especially on a horse who just got the shoes pulled. If the ground is freezing I am assuming the manure is freezing which is perfect for causing bruises when a horse steps on them.
I don't blame the horse not the farrier, it sounds like lack of education
She also said the horse was sound with shoes on, to me this generally means horse is not sound barefoot. It is all wording but with the information she gave you cannot blame the farrier.
With what you are saying yes I would be mad at the farrier too but how or where is the horse trimmed too short if his toe is too long? Did the farrier butcher the heels?
The horse was lame prior to the shoes being reapplied so it wasn't the shoe job that caused the lamness, but the op is going to have to address too small of shoes as this will cause more foot problems contracted heels and later on navicular problems.
what are you talking about "lack of education" Cheryl? On who's part? Exactly how is it that I would be uneducated on any part of this? I didn't tell him to cut the horse's heel off, or to trim him so short he got warm, I asked him to take the shoes off and round him up, common sense in the ice and snow up here. So why don't you pin point exactly where I am uneducated? | |
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Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | i think somebody may need to chill................. your taking to much to heart.......not everybody is goin to give you the advice you want to hear
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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
Location: Moving soon..... | It sounds like no one is giving you the answer you want. If you are going to ask for help, don't get mad at the responses you get.
JMPO, I would not have trimmed him at all. Some farriers get carried away and think that the sole has to all come out. I do not live where it gets icey, but it has taken my gelding 4 years to get his sole back to normal. Good luck, | |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Just a reminder but YOU asked for opinions on this. The information Diane gave does clearlly point towards the farrier but without that there was a lot of unanswered questions. Everyone here was simply telling you what they have experienced or seen themselves. But thanks for the reminder as to why I rarely waste my time trying to help people on here anymore! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | Wow calm down. You are clearly stressed out over this but you came here asking for advice. You have to realize that ALL folks have to go on is the info you gave in your posts. These folks are well meaning and offering advice/opinions as you requested. They can't possibly know every nuance or the back story or the fact that the pen is pristine and he only set foot out there for a minute.
The not putting shoes back on for now was my best advice due to the info you posted. Did I mean he should go around on unprotected soles...um ..no....I recommended the soft ride boots packed with Magic cushion to start and then boots alone for some transition time until the inflammation is gone and the sole has time to thicken/toughen up.
But...again...it's just my opinion...you asked us for opinions...matters not to me whether you take any of the advice. Nor do I care to guess or assign blame for how he got in this shape. I just offered advice based on experience and what I could offer to help with the problem...regardless of how it got that way or who is to blame. | |
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 Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | I pull shoes all the time in the winter (and btw the farrier always trims them) and I've occasionally had a horse who was a little tender footed for a day or two but I've never had one who was lame or had hot feet. Sounds like he trimmed them way too short. Hope there's no long term damage. So sorry. | |
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | SaraJean - 2014-12-08 4:02 PM
Just a reminder but YOU asked for opinions on this. The information Diane gave does clearlly point towards the farrier but without that there was a lot of unanswered questions. Everyone here was simply telling you what they have experienced or seen themselves. But thanks for the reminder as to why I rarely waste my time trying to help people on here anymore!
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Just to comment on a few things
The op first post you said you asked for the farrier to pull the shoes and trim, trim can mean many things to people depending on how long the shoes were left on for . On the second page you contradicted your first post and said you didn't ask for a trim but you asked for him to rasp the edges. Two different meanings.
Diane you know more what is going on, since she has spoke with you I am not sure why she sought other advise as you know the horse if you were the previous owner. I don't use shoes for my personal reasons and I have had the privilege of transitioning all of mine from being shod for years to barefoot. I never suggested to the op she not shoe her horse, I just said I wouldn't have put pads on the reason is due to the feet issues (I am assuming that the pads put on are not the removable type. If the horse needs pads then I would get the pads that I could remove via screws when I choose.
To the op lack of education, it sounds like you have not had any horses who had feet issues in the past. If what Diane is saying about 2 sizes to small of shoes and a long toe, myself I would have pulled the shoes, shortened the toes applied magic cushion, and applied soft rides or hoof boots until the horse is no longer laminitic then I would be hauling to vet for xrays then hauling to the most knowledgable farrier (I have drove 4 hours one way for shoes). I also give my horses time to adjust I wouldn't have been riding in that first week, and as soon as that horse showed soreness or heat that would be the end of riding until no symptoms. From the sounds of it you continued to ride or try to ride this horse after he showed the initial symptoms.
I also wouldn't be using bute again this comes with education and experience as banamine has proven to have better effects on preventing founder (the rotation of coffin bone) and will shorten the laminitic time frame this is due to it reducing inflammation, and it is a smooth muscle relaxant which will relax the blood vessels and reduce the pressure in the feet.
I would have worked on cooling the feet down standing in a snow bank if snow is available, using the game ready on lowest pressure possible standing in a river, anything to cool those feet down immediately. (You may have done this but never mentioned it)
I would have also consulted my vet immediately when the feet became warm and ask about isoxoprine as this drug has been shown to shorten the brusing time frame and reduce the risk of founder caused by excessive bruising. I also go directly to the vet via phone or to his clinic when things head south, I generally won't go to farriers if the horse has all four feet.
There are wonderful products to help with laminitis, as well as wonderful drugs.
You may have done all the above, but I am going by with what you have said and what Diane has said.
I am not saying I know everything, far from that, but as soon as something is not right I am calling my vet and asking his advice. I know many do not have this opportunity or privilege. I also started buying vet textbooks and drug book in the past few years to increase my knowledge so I know what questions to ask my vet. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1258
Location: MN | cheryl makofka - 2014-12-08 10:14 PM
Just to comment on a few things
The op first post you said you asked for the farrier to pull the shoes and trim, trim can mean many things to people depending on how long the shoes were left on for . On the second page you contradicted your first post and said you didn't ask for a trim but you asked for him to rasp the edges. Two different meanings.
Diane you know more what is going on, since she has spoke with you I am not sure why she sought other advise as you know the horse if you were the previous owner. I don't use shoes for my personal reasons and I have had the privilege of transitioning all of mine from being shod for years to barefoot. I never suggested to the op she not shoe her horse, I just said I wouldn't have put pads on the reason is due to the feet issues (I am assuming that the pads put on are not the removable type. If the horse needs pads then I would get the pads that I could remove via screws when I choose.
To the op lack of education, it sounds like you have not had any horses who had feet issues in the past. If what Diane is saying about 2 sizes to small of shoes and a long toe, myself I would have pulled the shoes, shortened the toes applied magic cushion, and applied soft rides or hoof boots until the horse is no longer laminitic then I would be hauling to vet for xrays then hauling to the most knowledgable farrier (I have drove 4 hours one way for shoes). I also give my horses time to adjust I wouldn't have been riding in that first week, and as soon as that horse showed soreness or heat that would be the end of riding until no symptoms. From the sounds of it you continued to ride or try to ride this horse after he showed the initial symptoms.
I also wouldn't be using bute again this comes with education and experience as banamine has proven to have better effects on preventing founder (the rotation of coffin bone) and will shorten the laminitic time frame this is due to it reducing inflammation, and it is a smooth muscle relaxant which will relax the blood vessels and reduce the pressure in the feet.
I would have worked on cooling the feet down standing in a snow bank if snow is available, using the game ready on lowest pressure possible standing in a river, anything to cool those feet down immediately. (You may have done this but never mentioned it)
I would have also consulted my vet immediately when the feet became warm and ask about isoxoprine as this drug has been shown to shorten the brusing time frame and reduce the risk of founder caused by excessive bruising. I also go directly to the vet via phone or to his clinic when things head south, I generally won't go to farriers if the horse has all four feet.
There are wonderful products to help with laminitis, as well as wonderful drugs.
You may have done all the above, but I am going by with what you have said and what Diane has said.
I am not saying I know everything, far from that, but as soon as something is not right I am calling my vet and asking his advice. I know many do not have this opportunity or privilege. I also started buying vet textbooks and drug book in the past few years to increase my knowledge so I know what questions to ask my vet.
Cheryl, I am not trying to jump down anyone's throat here, and I do thank you for the reply, however, I don't consider myself "uneducated" just because I didn't do things the way you mentioned. I have been around horses a long time also, and may not have all the "medicinal" opportunity or privilege (not sure what that means) but I have had opportunity to work hands on with my horses which is privilege enough for me.
Without going to the original post, I was very upset when I wrote it, and yes, I have had contact EVERYDAY with Diane about this horse, and her and I both agreed that I should ask other people's opinions on here, because thank God she has never had this happen to her, but she is the FIRST person I went to and called because I respect her GREATLY. When the horse was sore after getting on, I did not ride him anymore after that and did call the farrier, his feet were not warm at that point.
I have found an excellent farrier who is coming this morning to evaluate him. He was good yesterday, walking fine, with no heat. I hope he is back on the road to recovery. Thank you for your input. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| One of my geldings acts like he is going to die if I pull his shoes. He has had 2 injuries that were each a year rehab and both times I tried to pull shoes but after 2 months I could not stand to see him gimping around so shoes went back on. His feet were hot too, had xrays done and found his angels inside were off and he needed shoes to get him back up and staightend out. Good luck with your guy. | |
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| When I would pull shoes for the winter, I always told the farrier they would be going barefoot and to leave some foot. They always cut them down like they were putting shoes back on and the guys were sore for a couple of weeks. Now I just pull the shoes and don't trim (unless they are waaayy too long).
Perhaps this horse was stressing already from the move - big weather change, and then being trimmed perhaps too short just really put his body and immune system over the edge.
Good luck. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | snoopy - 2014-12-07 7:37 AM Dreamin of 3cans - 2014-12-07 7:19 AM Here is my opinion. We've bred the feet right out from under a lot of these horses. Now, you go to Walmart, take your shoes off and run around bare foot on the cold hard ground 10 hours or more and see how your feet fair. I'd be in tears after the first few hours. Thin soles or not THE GROUND IS FROZEN and the horse is use to HIS SHOES! Without xrays, how is the Farrier to know your horse has thin soles? Look in the mirror if you need to place blame somewhere. Lesson learned. First of all, What does Walmart have to do with anything? second, this horse is on soft ground in a heated barn most of the time and is still sore, and in an arena where it is very soft, 3rd, I don't think it is normal for ANY horse to get his shoes off, trimmed, then his feet come up warm!! So your comment about him being on hard ground for 10 hours or more is complete naivety. This horse has had nothing but care since he's been here miss "basher", so thanks for your reply, but before your next reply don't assume anything especially someone going to "Walmart" to take there shoes off before you give your next bit of input, and by the way, I did look in the mirror, and liked what I saw, THANKS THO!!
woah! Who lit fire under your butt?! She was using it as an example....geez | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | Glad to hear he is doing better! I hope he is on the road to recovery as well. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| if you have to tell your farrier not to trim them short after removing shoes, you should find a different farrier! That is their job..... to know what will make a horse lame and not lame, what to do and what not to do. I've went through my fair share of farriers. The good ones are hard to find and worth their weight in gold! To the OP: I would be livid if I were you. My experience: We had just moved to OK from Colorado and I called a guy that "he said" shoed for the college. He showed up, I had 5 for him to do, just trims, nothing fancy. he was nice, seemed to know his stuff. I watched him work on a 2 year old and everything seemed to go well. Left him with the rest to do. Got home that evening, everyone seemed to be good, feet looked decent. Two days later I had a gelding that all four legs were stocked up, in his hinds the swelling was into his hocks, heat in his feet, wouldn't stand for very long, lots of pain. First thought founder.. vet comes out and confirms that it isn't founder but the trim job. He bruised and luckily only developed one abscess! I didn't call him back out! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1258
Location: MN | thanks for the words of encouragement for my guy whom ever gave it. I did have a different farrier out today that seemed to know what he was doing. My horse had shoes on that were 2 sizes too small. He left the shoe a tad long in the back to allow the heel to grow, so he is wearing bell boots. I am gonna let him take it easy for a couple weeks to let him get used to his new feet, and work into it, but yes, this farrier was bewildered at what the other guy was trying to accomplish with his work. This farrier did not see any bruising, Pokey is feeling and acting GREAT!! Thank you | |
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