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 Expert
Posts: 1218
 
Location: Great NW | dianeguinn - 2014-03-03 4:23 PM Melanie, this is just my opinion, and I've been watching you and Chance a long time. I personally think he's sore in the back end somewhere....he's dropping the inside leg on the turns and he's hanging up behind. Almost sure signs of soreness. IMO, since it looks like he's WANTING to bow out of the turns instead of finishing tightly (but you grab him and make him finish), I'm going to guess stifles or SI....his hocks may be sore, too, but it doesn't really look like that to me. I'd get him to a good lameness vet and have him checked. These older, finished horses are hard to spot soreness in because they're so used to doing their job that they just go in there and work anyway, until they just can't any more, and I know you don't want him to get there. Look at his hocks from the side and if there's fluid pockets in the little depression on the hock, he needs his hocks injected, but I'd put more money on stifles or SI. JMO
Check his hamstrings and inner thighs. if he is sore here he can not fire out of the the turns. he may need a week or to either off or just walking if he is indeed sore in either of these areas. | |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
 
Location: Kansas | classicpotatochip - 2014-03-04 6:01 AM I agree with Diane. When horses you know well quit clocking, something's up. He may need a break, vetting, something. BUT consider this...1/10 th of a second on a standard pattern is 3 feet. When you shrink the pattern down, each 10th equals more feet, allowing less time for error of even a few feet. It looks like that pen is easy to come in too straight to first he ran by a stride and had to compensate. Fix that, then make sure you're completely finishing first, which I didn't see you do in the video. You let him out too soon. Relax your pelvis in the turn so he knows to finish and not try to leave. This will set you up perfectly for second. I didn't see anything wrong with third, tight and quick. If he's running great in other pens, quit hauling to this one if it keeps kicking your butt and you can't seem to get first right no matter what you do. Other than that, vet or time off or maybe both. A couple of weeks might turn him around.
We have only run 4 times all year, with the last 3 jackpots being in that barn, so that's part of my problem - I haven't been able to determine if we have legitimate problems or if that pen just doesn't fit us (which I don't think it does.....he excels in the really big pens) Everything that's been scheduled anywhere else has been cancelled so far this year, which stinks because I like running lots of different places. He ran Jan. 11th, 12th, 26th and then Feb. 23rd, with a solid week off in early February because of the weather. He doesn't seem to like having long breaks - the longer he sits in the pen just relaxing, the nastier he is to my other horses and the fresher he is when I start riding him again. We don't do any tuning at home unless I really think its necessary, and even then I will only walk the pattern since I don't have an arena. I just exercise him in the big hay meadows around here, and I try to vary our route from day to day so he doesn't get bored.
I did call my vet this morning and we're going in Thursday afternoon to go over him with a fine tooth comb. Hopefully that gives me some answers because I think I've got him on a pretty good program right now. I like how his feet look and seem to feel since we put Magic Cushion under the pads the end of January, and that has always been our biggest issue.
abrooks, I normally do give him more room coming into first, just screwed up a little that day. I knew it would cost us a tenth, but we shouldn't get outrun by 8/10ths with only that little bobble. (at least not in my opinion. I know many people would be happy to be in the 2D) | |
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Location: Down South Mississippi | I see several hesitations in his forward motion leaving the first, head flys up going to 2nd, and 2 hesitations leaving the 2nd. Cant see the 3rd. All those things cost time... | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Why does this horse have pads on? As this could be part of the problem, and not the hocks, etc.
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-03-04 4:55 PM Why does this horse have pads on? As this could be part of the problem, and not the hocks, etc.
He has small feet for his size and we can't seem to keep him feeling great w/out pads so we gave up last fall and decided to just keep him in pads. That still wasn't perfect so at our last reset I had the farrier pack the feet with magic cushion before he nailed shoes on. That has seemed to be a big help - he feels a lot better than before we put the MC in there. And believe me, my vet will go straight to his front feet first thing Thursday. I am pretty confident that this time his feet aren't sore so if something else is, we'll be able to find it. | |
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Posts: 6419
| Any chance of contracted heels? | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
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Location: Kansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-03-04 9:42 PM Any chance of contracted heels?
I don't know. All I do know is that I think his feet are feeling better now than they have in months. I'm judging that off how he is moving in the pen and when I ride, more technical opinions will have to come from the vet. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-04 9:56 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-03-04 9:42 PM Any chance of contracted heels?
I don't know. All I do know is that I think his feet are feeling better now than they have in months. I'm judging that off how he is moving in the pen and when I ride, more technical opinions will have to come from the vet.
I would also suggest taking pictures of your horses feet and messaging farrier lady, she is very good at explaining feet.
You can also send pictures to me and I can take a look and tell you what I see. I had one quit turning as his front feet were contracted, it is a horrible battle to expand the feet especially with shoes but is doable.
Also I would get X-rays of the feet see where the coffin bone is, as a horse with sore soles can have coffin rotation.
Feel free to pm me, I would be more then willing to share my experiences and knowledge | |
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 MaMa Hen
Posts: 12223
Location: Louisiana | This might have been said, so forgive me if I repeat someone. Look at him throw his nose up as you come out of your turns. Do you think you are accidentally pulling up on him just a bit as you pull yourself up to leave the barrel? Maybe you could try to grab the mane with your rein hand, so you won't accidentally get in his mouth. Or maybe change to a lighter bit or hack. Otherwise, it looked good.  | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
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Location: Kansas | Grits - 2014-03-04 11:56 PM This might have been said, so forgive me if I repeat someone. Look at him throw his nose up as you come out of your turns. Do you think you are accidentally pulling up on him just a bit as you pull yourself up to leave the barrel? Maybe you could try to grab the mane with your rein hand, so you won't accidentally get in his mouth. Or maybe change to a lighter bit or hack. Otherwise, it looked good.
My reins may be too short and I could be pulling on him. I catch crap all the time around here for my super long reins but maybe that's what works for Chance and I. The bit he's running in now is a chain mouth Rosie gag with no curb chain. I've used a really really light hack on him before with no curb, and kind of seem to go back & forth between the two.
At any rate, we'll see what the vet says tomorrow. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Update ----
We went to the vet last Thursday, did a lameness exam of walking & trotting on the gravel parking area and he was head-bobbing lame trotting a circle to the right. No response to flex tests on hind legs, got a tiny "ouch" message when flexing and poking around on his right front ankle, but nothing that just screamed "here's the problem." So Doc decided to start with nerve blocks. He blocked two spots on either side of the right front foot, waited for it to take effect, then repeated the lameness exam. No change in the lameness at all. so we blocked a little higher, up in the ankle, and that got a small improvement but not enough to say that the pain was for sure below that block. Wound up pulling his right front shoe & pad, then of course he responded big time to the hoof testers. So while I wasn't completely sold that the front feet (and especially the right one) were the source of our problem, I realize that if his feet hurt AT ALL, he won't run like he's capable of so we've got to fix that.
Treatment plan - 5 PSGAG (supposed to be same thing as Adequan) shots 5 days apart, 2 grams of bute daily for 10 days, Isoxsuprine (17 200mg tablets morning and night for 21 days, then 17 tablets once a day for 14 days, then every other day until the 1000 pill bottle runs out) and shoe him at next appointment with EquiPack pour-in pads on the front.
We've done all that or started on it. Equipack went on yesterday with new shoes, he's had the first PSGAG shot and gets the second tomorrow, and has been getting his isoxsuprine twice daily. We missed the bute yesterday evening, and I don't plan to give it tomorrow or Friday.
I took him with me to a barrel race tonight and let him cruise through an exhibition so Matt could watch and tell me if Chance was crossfiring around barrels or doing anything else abnormal. I made a point to not mess with him at any barrel so he'd do his job completely on his own rather than me grabbing him and making him finish the turns. Well of course, he looked great. Held his leads all the way, snapped around to finish each turn, and just basically made me feel silly for doing an exhibition instead of just entering up. I did not enter him but am thinking I will enter him at a $1,500 added there on Saturday since he loves that pen. By pulling him off the bute two days before, I would think that if something is off & the bute's currently covering it up, it would show up on Saturday. I just want to get to the bottom of it and be confident that I have my gray monster back to 100%, and if necessary I can take him to a different vet sometime next week for a second opinion. It is all so confusing and I just really don't know what to think. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| He got,deep or,did a funny step on the second. And you had to,help out of the first. Maybe hock or stifle problem. My good mare when should hurt her stifle her turns still great but no,take off, but if you watched my video she was running on 3 legs. Once fixed when i come off the first she would set u back in the saddle. I would get her checked maybe you local vet will spend a little time to flex to see if they are sore. Or could have some other subtle problem. | |
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| I find that most, if not all, farriers like to really cut that sole. A lot of these hotter bred horses have thin soles to begin with and cutting it out just makes it worse. I stand over my farrier and don't let him trim ANY sole at all unless needed to seat the shoe flat. Seems to help. | |
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 Hero of the Year
Posts: 10767
Location: Haslet, Texas | motherof2 - 2014-03-04 4:19 PM I see several hesitations in his forward motion leaving the first, head flys up going to 2nd, and 2 hesitations leaving the 2nd. Cant see the 3rd. All those things cost time...
I saw the same thing...no power out of the first barrel, same on 2nd barrel plus he hung up as he was leaving. He just has no snap or power for speed or hustle. I would definately have him checked for soreness. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-13 12:40 AM
Update ----
We went to the vet last Thursday, did a lameness exam of walking & trotting on the gravel parking area and he was head-bobbing lame trotting a circle to the right. No response to flex tests on hind legs, got a tiny "ouch" message when flexing and poking around on his right front ankle, but nothing that just screamed "here's the problem." So Doc decided to start with nerve blocks. He blocked two spots on either side of the right front foot, waited for it to take effect, then repeated the lameness exam. No change in the lameness at all. so we blocked a little higher, up in the ankle, and that got a small improvement but not enough to say that the pain was for sure below that block. Wound up pulling his right front shoe & pad, then of course he responded big time to the hoof testers. So while I wasn't completely sold that the front feet (and especially the right one) were the source of our problem, I realize that if his feet hurt AT ALL, he won't run like he's capable of so we've got to fix that.
Treatment plan - 5 PSGAG (supposed to be same thing as Adequan) shots 5 days apart, 2 grams of bute daily for 10 days, Isoxsuprine (17 200mg tablets morning and night for 21 days, then 17 tablets once a day for 14 days, then every other day until the 1000 pill bottle runs out) and shoe him at next appointment with EquiPack pour-in pads on the front.
We've done all that or started on it. Equipack went on yesterday with new shoes, he's had the first PSGAG shot and gets the second tomorrow, and has been getting his isoxsuprine twice daily. We missed the bute yesterday evening, and I don't plan to give it tomorrow or Friday.
I took him with me to a barrel race tonight and let him cruise through an exhibition so Matt could watch and tell me if Chance was crossfiring around barrels or doing anything else abnormal. I made a point to not mess with him at any barrel so he'd do his job completely on his own rather than me grabbing him and making him finish the turns. Well of course, he looked great. Held his leads all the way, snapped around to finish each turn, and just basically made me feel silly for doing an exhibition instead of just entering up. I did not enter him but am thinking I will enter him at a $1,500 added there on Saturday since he loves that pen. By pulling him off the bute two days before, I would think that if something is off & the bute's currently covering it up, it would show up on Saturday. I just want to get to the bottom of it and be confident that I have my gray monster back to 100%, and if necessary I can take him to a different vet sometime next week for a second opinion. It is all so confusing and I just really don't know what to think.
Did the vet X-ray the foot? If his foot is sore, I would get at least 3 views of the foot to find out what the problem is, also find out what nerve they injected and keep a log. I had one horse that sounds exactly like yours, but he did respond to the block, vet said laminitis, 2 weeks of bute no improvement. (I did do X-rays which did not support laminitis) Any way I bit the bullet and went to my regular vet who is 4 hours away, the block the first vet did was a navicular block not for laminitis. Short story my horse had contracted heels causing his barrel problems and lameness. It took a year to fix.
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| Close to 2 years ago my gelding was having issues with 1st barrel. Took him to vet and he had thin soles and inflammed bursas. We injected bursas, made a shoeing change (Grand Circuit aluminum shoes) and did pour in pads. The first two shoeings we did full pour in pads, then decreased it to only filling it half full. My gelding has never run better since making the changes. Took him to vet one year later for pre-season check assuming we have to inject again but we didn't. Everything looked great and his feet are super comfortable.
He goes barefoot in the winter (I don't ride much) and gets shoes the rest of the time. He LOVES the shoes, everytime my shoer puts them back on he licks and chews. I don't know if he "needs" this setup anymore but I'm not going to change what's working. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 251
Location: Oregon | To the OP, on the isoxoprene. I personally have had not luck with the tabs and had counted it out as a treatment for my navicular mare. My vet suggested trying again with the liquid oral isoxoprene and it made a world of difference.
Also I have had great luck with equipak, my barrel mare has it all winter and i'm starting to think i may leave it on her all year. She gets chronic bruised soles and then won't even trot out with forward motion.
Best of luck! | |
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 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | I know you said you use pads. Have you tried putting a wedge shoe on him? My mare was having some lameness that was only obvious to me, but she started knocking barrels and just not firing which is very unlike her. I had a farrier suggest putting wedges on her and she started working again. I have tried to take them off a few different times because her feet are great, but she only runs good for about a week, then she is sore again. She was stressing her front tendons and ligaments due to her being as massive as she is and turning so hard causing her to be sore and over compensate.
You may try a wedge shoe and see where you are in 3 weeks. | |
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