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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
   
Location: NE Texas | Those are OLD makers. They're now made by Epic and appear to be VERY flat seated to me, like a roping saddle. Good luck! | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Herbie - 2015-09-24 1:47 PM
Those are OLD makers. They're now made by Epic and appear to be VERY flat seated to me, like a roping saddle. Good luck!
Saw the Epics too, and too much rise. Think cutting saddle.
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:37 PM Herbie - 2015-09-24 8:59 AM rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed. I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled. Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried. So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not. Grrrrr! As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different. You should contact Libby Hurley. Her saddle is made on a wide roping type tree. It's a flatter seat with a lower pomel and cantle. I had a horse years ago exactly like you're describing and it worked for her. As a 4 YO she had those big wide shoulders and was just ultra wide throughout. She did change as she matured and got some wither and then it wasn't such an issue.
Also, a saddleright pad will help with the stability. My current horse isn't round backed and does have a decent wither, but sucker will turn out from under you and leave you and your saddle hanging in thin air and off the side. I do have to snug my girth up a bit tighter than I want to, but without my saddleright, I feel like i'm riding a loose hided bucking bull. I've kept a saddleright pad around for years, but this is the first horse i've actually used it on consistently. Unfortunately, I already use a Saddleright, so cross that possibility off the list. I will look into the Libby Hurley tho. Thanks CM! edited to add: Just looked at the Libby Hurley saddles and found ones made by Circle Y and by Ammerman. Both had too much rise in the seat and too high a cantle. Sigh
Libby has a new line. It's totally different than her previous saddles.
http://epicsaddles.com/hard.asp | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| If it gives y'all any idea of this mare...Any saddle ends up feeling like you are sitting on a draft horse(and I know because I used to keep hubby's draft cross legged up and he is about 17.2 and weighed in at #1850). Anyone that gets on her complains about sore inner thighs after being on just a few minutes.
And Rachelnelly, if you didn't already see, I edited my previous post to sat that I HAD seen the Epics and too much rise and no indication of twist of bars to try and fit this mare. But thanks for the suggestions....keep 'em coming...especially if you have a wide saddle I can actually try on this mare, lol. | |
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.
Love your explanation. I love my Vernon Purdy saddle. They are awesome. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:37 PM Herbie - 2015-09-24 8:59 AM rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed. I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled. Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried. So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not. Grrrrr! As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different. You should contact Libby Hurley. Her saddle is made on a wide roping type tree. It's a flatter seat with a lower pomel and cantle. I had a horse years ago exactly like you're describing and it worked for her. As a 4 YO she had those big wide shoulders and was just ultra wide throughout. She did change as she matured and got some wither and then it wasn't such an issue.
Also, a saddleright pad will help with the stability. My current horse isn't round backed and does have a decent wither, but sucker will turn out from under you and leave you and your saddle hanging in thin air and off the side. I do have to snug my girth up a bit tighter than I want to, but without my saddleright, I feel like i'm riding a loose hided bucking bull. I've kept a saddleright pad around for years, but this is the first horse i've actually used it on consistently. Unfortunately, I already use a Saddleright, so cross that possibility off the list. I will look into the Libby Hurley tho. Thanks CM! edited to add: Just looked at the Libby Hurley saddles and found ones made by Circle Y and by Ammerman. Both had too much rise in the seat and too high a cantle. Sigh
The new ones are are by Epic. The ones I've seen on the roping tree had a 4" cantle and low swells. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 2:10 PM
If it gives y'all any idea of this mare...Any saddle ends up feeling like you are sitting on a draft horse(and I know because I used to keep hubby's draft cross legged up and he is about 17.2 and weighed in at #1850). Anyone that gets on her complains about sore inner thighs after being on just a few minutes.
And Rachelnelly, if you didn't already see, I edited my previous post to sat that I HAD seen the Epics and too much rise and no indication of twist of bars to try and fit this mare. But thanks for the suggestions....keep 'em coming...especially if you have a wide saddle I can actually try on this mare, lol.
It sounds like you are going to have to get a custom tree made, if you want a really good fit. On a top quality custom shop saddle, you could later get a new tree put in it and still have a nice saddle. Depending on how good the mare is, that might be an option. I think it would run around 500-1000 dollars to change out a tree. | |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 2:10 PM If it gives y'all any idea of this mare...Any saddle ends up feeling like you are sitting on a draft horse(and I know because I used to keep hubby's draft cross legged up and he is about 17.2 and weighed in at #1850). Anyone that gets on her complains about sore inner thighs after being on just a few minutes. And Rachelnelly, if you didn't already see, I edited my previous post to sat that I HAD seen the Epics and too much rise and no indication of twist of bars to try and fit this mare. But thanks for the suggestions....keep 'em coming...especially if you have a wide saddle I can actually try on this mare, lol.
It's too bad you're so far away. Stanley at Allen Ranch is making his own flex tree now and he's been modifying some of them to have super flared out bars. He's always up for an experiment, lol | |
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 Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty
Posts: 20904
Location: LouLouVille, OK | This is all interesting considering I just ordered a new saddle and it's wider then my others.
I figure different saddle makers are alot like different brands of jeans... it's all a matter of finding what fits and works no matter how wide they claim or don't claim... I have 2 different saddles right now with the same size gullet and they fit entirely different...
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM
Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood.
I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better.
One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit.
They have a patented inskirt riggin that adjusts up to 2" so depending on where you want the cinch you can move the riggin to accommodate.
There are no other saddles that go bigger then 8" everyone measuring their saddle and saying it is a 10" gullet or even most that measure 8" are measuring wrong as to true measure the gullet you need to measure it while the tree is being made. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| svincent - 2015-09-22 9:56 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 7:28 PM
Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder)
Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO.
I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up.
I tried the tod sloan b3
Lisa Lockhart extra wide
Charmayne James
Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree
Pozzi wide fit
Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle
Why does it need an obscene gullet for shoulder clearance when it sits BEHIND the shoulder. That doesn't even make sense.
Martin has an outstanding marketing strategist, that's for sure.
If you look at a horses anatomy you would know the shoulder sits on a pendulum. The crown c is supposed to sit behind the shoulder when the shoulder is at rest. When the leg is fully extended behind the scapula is farther back, therefore under saddle, also the muscle becomes larger as it has contracted. | |
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 The One
Posts: 7997
Location: South Georgia | Herbie - 2015-09-24 2:47 PM Those are OLD makers. They're now made by Epic and appear to be VERY flat seated to me, like a roping saddle. Good luck!
Ah, I wish saddle fit was simpler! I need a chart to decode this issue! LOL So if my horse took an 8" gullet in a caldwell (for example), what angle of bars would I need in a traditional (6.5-7") gullet? We need a table to figure this out!
Why can't it be that simple?
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | I ride in a treeless saddle....seems that a treeless would take out all the worry about angels of the tree bars, etc.  | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 545
Location: Texas | slacy09 - 2018-02-13 3:12 PM I ride in a treeless saddle....seems that a treeless would take out all the worry about angels of the tree bars, etc.
You would think, but literally I had a TF treeless that did not fit my mare. It wouldn't stay tight, rolled and when you set it on her bareback it wouldn't even sit down on her. Guess maybe she needed a wide. I didn't ride well in it at all, so I sold it and had a tree made for her and back in a treed saddle. So much happier. She is wide-backed with hardly any withers, it was about bar angle for her not gullet size for sure. | |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | TXBarrelRacer84 - 2018-02-13 3:23 PM slacy09 - 2018-02-13 3:12 PM I ride in a treeless saddle....seems that a treeless would take out all the worry about angels of the tree bars, etc.
I have a mare with wider back and not much wither and I prefer treed on her. I think the treeless work better on the appendix types, at least it does for mine | |
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