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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
   
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
Isn't what they're doing just grandfathering in babies born before the incentive existed? That seems like a good idea to get more people involved for the future. And then the babies have to have been an attempt at getting color past the 2013 cutoff. It makes good sense to me. | |
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 Looking For Fun!
Posts: 4067
Location: Feeding those that need me | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-21 1:28 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints.  I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
I think it was an excellent move for APHA to get more members involved and "jumping on the bandwagon". The rule that was in effect is still in effect for horses with foaling dates AFTER 2013, therefore they are helping both competitors and breeders out. Now that we breeders know that the incentive is in place, people are more likely to take their solid mares to colored stallions but those that were not aware of this program forming or the added bonus of having an eligible paint horse running and might have bred to a QH are still eligible since it was before the program was formed.
I see it as nothing but a good thing for the breed. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-21 12:28 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints.  I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
Three 4 Luck - I really am happy for you. No sarcasm. Really.
Yes, it's great for people who already have Paints they run or will be running. However, there is now no reason for someone to buy my yearlings, twos instead of one that has zero colored Paints in its pedigree. I was hoping this incentive was going to be something my Paint stud's colts would have going for them. To me, that's why you have incentive programs - to generate new sales.
In addition - we change rules a lot. This change makes me suspect we'll extend this thing again.
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 Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices. | |
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Chi Chi Mama
Posts: 11212
Location: Spokompton, Wa | I wish I knew why. Last year I sold a APHA gelding out a quarter horse stallion and APHA mare. Frenchmans Guy, Biankus, Easy Jet Too and Easy Jet all on his papers. I basically gave him away. I had hardly any interest. He had a nice pattern and just needed hauled. I am guessing if he were AQHA, I could have easily doubled by price. | |
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| dianeguinn - 2014-01-21 10:51 AM
CowgirlLindz - 2014-01-21 8:04 AM
Just my thoughts but a quarter horse has the potential either to be also registered APHA or its offspring could be registered APHA (more options). Where as a APHA horse's offspring cannot be AQHA registered.
When I was shopping I looked at both AQHA and APHA registered horses (including solid breds). However I could tell I preferred to get an AQHA. Perhapes because the registry is larger? There are also more AQHA shows in my area. Also as pointed out they are (can be) more marketable for resale.
A quarter horse cannot be registered APHA. That changed in 2008, I believe (maybe 2006 ). My memory's not what it used to be. They must have one paint parent in order to qualify for APHA registration. If they are a cropout now, they are registered with AQHA and have "excessive white" on their papers. They CANNOT be registered APHA.
Sorry Diane;
You were reading the requirements for a solid colored paint baby and not the regular registry ....
REGULAR REGISTRY PAINTS ..... >>>>>
Look at rule RG 070 G in the 2014 rule book which reads ....
G. A horse with both sire and dam registered in the American Quarter Horse Association, The Jockey Club of New York or any foreign Thoroughbred registry recognized by The Jockey Club of New York, the combination of any two of these Associations with at least one specified “natural Paint marking” in the described zone in Figure B that exceeds 4-inches, shall be eligible for Regular Registry.
*****************************************************************
SOLID BRED PAINTS .....>>>>
are treated like step children or your neighbors ugly kids .... lol
Solid Paint-Bred Registry.
1. The solid Paint-Bred Registry is provided to record the pedigree of all stallions and mares and geldings not meeting the color requirements (RG-070) of the Regular Registry. The following horses will be listed in the regular Stud Book of the Association as solid Paint-Bred Horses.
a.
Resultant solid color foals fr
om two registered Paint Horses.
b.
Resultant solid color foals fr
om a Paint Horse registered in the American Paint Horse Association and a Quarter Horse registered in the American Quarter Horse Association or a Thoroughbred registered in the Jockey Club or any international Thoroughbred Registry recognized by the Jockey Club.
c.
All horses r
egistered prior to January 1, 2006 resulting from the breeding of two Quarter Horses or a Quarter Horse and a Thoroughbred or two Thoroughbreds that are ineligible for registration with their respective breed registry will remain classified as Breeding Stock/Identification Status.
2. Horses registered in the solid Paint-Bred/Breeding Stock Registry are restricted from competition with Regular Registry horses and do not have the same privileges as horses registered in the Regular Registry. See Rules SC-165. and RA-000.D. for restrictions.
C. Identification Status.
1. Solid colored geldings previously registered as stallions in the Breeding Stock registry (that do not have at least one Paint parent) will be accepted for identification status upon the surrender of the Breeding Stock certificate of registration and written notice of date of castration.
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 392
Location: CA | ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I for one have benefited from solid paints being priced less then their colorful counterparts a couple times. I have an AQHA gelding and his maternal half brother who is a solid APHA. Honestly my APHA (from AUS ranch) seems to be the fancier and (so far) easier to train horse. The solid paint colt is such a natural and is not as hot as his brother.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask. | |
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| ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM
aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks.
AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol
APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS ....
At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not...
you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol...
It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ...
As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ...
Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr
But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I have a chestnut breeding stock paint mare. Not running bred by any means, just an old school bred working mare. Her bloodlines are mostly quarter horse, aside from the very top which has a strip of loud colored paints. In my opinion, she is a quarter horse - obviously AQHA does not agree lol. I have her bred to a nice quarter horse stallion whose colts have been selling for good prices. I know if I ever go to sell the colt, which is the last thing I plan to do, I will have to price the horse lower due to the APHA papers. But I knew that when I bred her. Paint prospects are just not worth the same amount quarter horse prospects. Point blank, AQHA is just a better association with a wider range of nicer horses. I love the way a paint looks and I sure wouldnt be against owning a colored paint one day. Not to mention I've seen a good bit of them that can light up a barrel pattern!
A little side story....I was at a barrel race and my mare (the one mentioned above) had just laid down a pretty nice 1D run. As I was cooling her off, a guy stopped me and asked me how she was bred. I told him she was a registered paint and there wasnt a single name on her papers that he would recognize. He looked pretty surprised and said "well you better not tell her that!" Gave me a good chuckle! 
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | drivemaround - 2014-01-21 4:27 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask.Â
Thanks, Lady! We were so glad you got that colt - he literally hit the ground, got up and said, "Get busy and find me a great home cuz I am special!" Good thing we could do that! ;-)
In case everyone thinks I'm crazy now - this is him at one day old. See what I mean?
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Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | BARRELHORSE USA - 2014-01-21 6:43 PM ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS .... At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not... you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol... It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ... As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ... Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet ) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
Having worked for both QH and APHA, I do realize this. The difference in how the associations operate is unreal. APHA made me want to bang my head into the wall on a daily basis for decisions made and the lack of long-term planning that seemed to occur.
And you're right. APHA could be called racist. They readily discriminate against the solid horses. They make rules based upon the here and now...again reactive instead of proactive. Instead of looking at the overall betterment of the breed, they make decisions based upon the current state. Nothing is consistent and the rules they pass often hurt more than help the breed and its breeders.
Another example of reactive behavior is their World Show, or what used to be their World Show. To try and be more like QH, they tried to implement a qualifying system. At the same time, they also decided to split the Youth from the Open. This destroyed their World Show. It used to be a family atmosphere and had huge numbers. Now, for a family to show, it takes two trips to Fort Worth. Not only that, but to win a World Championship pays crap. An exhibitor will pay more in entry fees than they will receive in a payout. What's the point? At the end of the day, people aren't competing for a ribbon. They want bragging rights and monetary incentives.
Many of the decisions the association has made over the years has negatively impacted the breed, which ultimately affects the horses' value.
When I left APHA as an employee, it was because of how toxic the association was. To me, APHA has lost its vision and focus, both of which negatively impacts the breed and the people involved. | |
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Duct Tape Bikini Girl
Posts: 2554
| I have finally learned it is easier to sell a pretty horse that can't do anything than an ugly horse that can do everything. Not all Paints are pretty though.
When I buy a QH or Paint I ask myself if the horse will sell if things don't work out. I avoid horses with blue eyes and/or pink skin around the eyes. I try to make sure there is at least as much dark hair as white hair on the face. Sunburn and eye damage possibilities are things people don't want to deal with.
No matter which breed you buy, color sells! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | I've owned two paint barrel horses before and they definitely had a personality they're color didn't deter me from buying them. When I moved to Southern CO though it was a whole different world. No one, and I mean NO ONE, would even look at a Paint. I don't know why that is but maybe people are just brought up that way? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | aggiejudger - 2014-01-22 8:32 AM
BARRELHORSE USA - 2014-01-21 6:43 PM ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS .... At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not... you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol... It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ... As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ... Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet ) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
And you're right. APHA could be called racist. They readily discriminate against the solid horses. They make rules based upon the here and now...again reactive instead of proactive. Instead of looking at the overall betterment of the breed, they make decisions based upon the current state. Nothing is consistent and the rules they pass often hurt more than help the breed and its breeders.
Another example of reactive behavior is their World Show, or what used to be their World Show. To try and be more like QH, they tried to implement a qualifying system. At the same time, they also decided to split the Youth from the Open. This destroyed their World Show. It used to be a family atmosphere and had huge numbers. Now, for a family to show, it takes two trips to Fort Worth. Not only that, but to win a World Championship pays crap. An exhibitor will pay more in entry fees than they will receive in a payout. What's the point? At the end of the day, people aren't competing for a ribbon. They want bragging rights and monetary incentives.
Many of the decisions the association has made over the years has negatively impacted the breed, which ultimately affects the horses'Â value.
When I left APHA as an employee, it was because of how toxic the association was. To me, APHA has lost its vision and focus, both of which negatively impacts the breed and the people involved.
Again - very well said. Appreciate your insider's perspective. What year did you leave, if you don't mind my asking.
And Barrelhorse USA - I sure have to agree about the silly Chrome magazine. I don't know too many women who wear off the shoulder furs to the barn . . . and if there are women like that out there . . . they aren't going to buy my horses anyway. I mentioned on Chrome's FB page that some breeders were concerned about this and was told that breeders are 8% of the APHA membership and that Chrome was attracting such great advertisers that it would make money for the association. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 392
Location: CA | ausranch - 2014-01-21 7:38 PM drivemaround - 2014-01-21 4:27 PM ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask. Thanks, Lady! We were so glad you got that colt - he literally hit the ground, got up and said, "Get busy and find me a great home cuz I am special!" Good thing we could do that! ;- ) In case everyone thinks I'm crazy now - this is him at one day old. See what I mean?
That is my boy! LOL hopefully now I can ride him properly! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 102
| Practically every person on here can name at least half of the horses that ran at the NFR this year. Name 10 paints that are known on that level that have ran in the last 10 years. I think that is the answer to the original question. | |
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 Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | Can you tell which one of these two is a paint and which is qh? Nope...might get a lucky guess but that's about it.
I think people really narrow their options a whole lot when purchasing a horse, for lots of different reasons.
We've got two solid paints at our place and both of them were priced right up there comparable to a qh of the same caliber. But a person can definately find a bargain, especially when looking at a solid paint!
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