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 Extreme Veteran
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| so what would you suggest for a 6 year old horse getting rode regularly that is a hard keeper | |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
 
Location: North Dakota | abdittmer1154 - 2013-12-24 2:13 AM so what would you suggest for a 6 year old horse getting rode regularly that is a hard keeper
I have heard Amplify will put weight on one. I've never fed it, but know someone who has and it sure fattened her horse up. Gave her quite a bit of energy as well. | |
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  A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | abdittmer1154 - 2013-12-24 3:13 AM
so what would you suggest for a 6 year old horse getting rode regularly that is a hard keeper
A high FAT feed. | |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | winwillows - 2013-12-24 12:27 AM
Well there you go. Not saying not to use Soy. In fact I said use it if you like it. Just saying I don't, and decades of soy use do not matter if the ingredient has changed through genetic modification. Did you know that over 20 countries will not allow GMO feeds to be imported into their country? The bottom line is that most people don't have a clue what is in their feed if they read a least cost formulated label. But, horses are forgiving, or we humans would have killed them long ago. If you think that the nutritionists still decide what goes into many horse feeds, and not the bean counters , why do you think so many have gone to least cost formulation and away from fixed formulation. Least cost formulation is standard today, money driven, and not nutritionally driven.
Don't get me started on the GMO debate.
There has been ZERO evidence proving any negative health effects of GMO foods. PERIOD. There have been studies that say "may" and "Might" but no conclusive evidence. ZERO. At least that I've seen. And studies done by 'health food gurus' doesn't really count. They all believe that GMO is the devil.
GMO is nothing more than what we do with selective breeding for horses. Period. End of story. There is nothing evil about it.
Now, moving on................
There ARE still fixed formula feeds. People just don't like paying the extra money to buy them. I choose to, just because I'm OCD about my feed. I have been feeding the same feeds for over 3 years now without an issue. Just slick, healthy, happy horses with awesome feet. No ulcers. No laminitis. No colic *knock on wood*. Nothing.
High fat. High fiber.
And by the way (continuing on the original post), comparing human issues to horse issues is crazy. Horses are designed to only utilize PLANT products ie: plant protein. We as humans are designed to utilize ANIMAL protein as our sole source of protein. Yes, we are able to use plant based proteins. But, we are designed to use ANIMAL AND PLANT products. So comparing horses to humans would be like comparing a bear to a lamb. Literally.
Edited by hlynn 2013-12-24 10:04 AM
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | hlynn - 2013-12-24 9:02 AM winwillows - 2013-12-24 12:27 AM Well there you go. Not saying not to use Soy. In fact I said use it if you like it. Just saying I don't, and decades of soy use do not matter if the ingredient has changed through genetic modification. Did you know that over 20 countries will not allow GMO feeds to be imported into their country? The bottom line is that most people don't have a clue what is in their feed if they read a least cost formulated label. But, horses are forgiving, or we humans would have killed them long ago. If you think that the nutritionists still decide what goes into many horse feeds, and not the bean counters , why do you think so many have gone to least cost formulation and away from fixed formulation. Least cost formulation is standard today, money driven, and not nutritionally driven. Don't get me started on the GMO debate. There has been ZERO evidence proving any negative health effects of GMO foods. PERIOD. There have been studies that say "may" and "Might" but no conclusive evidence. ZERO. At least that I've seen. And studies done by 'health food gurus' doesn't really count. They all believe that GMO is the devil. GMO is nothing more than what we do with selective breeding for horses. Period. End of story. There is nothing evil about it. Now, moving on................ There ARE still fixed formula feeds. People just don't like paying the extra money to buy them. I choose to, just because I'm OCD about my feed. I have been feeding the same feeds for over 3 years now without an issue. Just slick, healthy, happy horses with awesome feet. No ulcers. No laminitis. No colic *knock on wood*. Nothing. High fat. High fiber. And by the way (continuing on the original post ), comparing human issues to horse issues is crazy. Horses are designed to only utilize PLANT products ie: plant protein. We as humans are designed to utilize ANIMAL protein as our sole source of protein. Yes, we are able to use plant based proteins. But, we are designed to use ANIMAL AND PLANT products. So comparing horses to humans would be like comparing a bear to a lamb. Literally.
Not Exactly but it would be like putting Narwal genes into a horse so we can all ride Unicorns.
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | The answer for hard keepers, beyond the typical causes of teeth, parasites, and stress, is to get the hind gut to function to it's best potential. This is where a horse is supposed to make the majority of it's energy. If the hind gut does not work, maintaining proper condition is almost impossible. First, I limit NSC in the concentrate part of the diet to a max of 250 grams per feeding.( find amount per pound by % of NSC in feed X 454 ). If you can't stay in this area in two feedings and need more because of poor quality hay, feed a lunch. The best money you can spend is to buy the best hay that you can find. I like mixed hay that has some alfalfa. Some alfalfa in the hay slows the hind gut down enough to allow more complete digestion of the harder to break down grass hay. I don't feed refined oil, corn, raw rice bran or soy if I can help it. Look for vegetable fat in it's more natural state like stabilized rice bran. For concentrate, there are a number of choices, but the important thing is to stay below the 250 gram per feeding number to keep undigested NSC out of the hind gut. If you coordinate the whole system this way most. "Hard Keeper" issues will go away. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 830
Location: Paradise , tx | hlynn - 2013-12-24 10:02 AM [
. Horses are designed to only utilize PLANT products ie: plant protein. We as humans are designed to utilize ANIMAL protein as our sole source of protein. Yes, we are able to use plant based proteins. But, we are designed to use ANIMAL AND PLANT products. So comparing horses to humans would be like comparing a bear to a lamb. Literally.
I agree with you on this point | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | Buy a really high quality, soybean based ration-balancer and feed it for a few months. Progressive Nutrition makes the one we feed and recommend. Buckeye & Woody's have good ones we have used and liked too. Any of those three are good and it depends on what's available in your area.
Then look at your horse - you'll see a huge difference! I believe my eyes and my experience in this business a LONG time before some vegetarian blogger.
And I'm pretty darn sure those premium feeds do what they do because of the real research done by people with PhDs and base their decisions on science. Not so much vegetarian bloggers. . . . | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2604
Location: Texas | I have been feeding a high quality, dehulled soybean meal based, ration balancer for the past 2-3 years and have liked it. I am just trying to get to the bottom of some unexplained issues, especially with my coming two year old who has been raised on the high quality, soybean based, ration balancer. To those of you that gave it, thanks for the helpful feedback. | |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | TBone - 2013-12-24 4:08 PM
I have been feeding a high quality, dehulled soybean meal based, ration balancer for the past 2-3 years and have liked it. I am just trying to get to the bottom of some unexplained issues, especially with my coming two year old who has been raised on the high quality, soybean based, ration balancer. To those of you that gave it, thanks for the helpful feedback.
Again, WHAT are your issues? | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Six weeks ago, i switch my horses off a commerical feed and have gome to hay cube alfalfa/grass hay cube with beet pulp and a hay pellet grass and alfalfa, also feed about 10lbs a hay at night. I have noticed my cribber has just aboutmstopped the last time was 6 years ago,when i got,some alfalfa hay andmshe was almost a no cribber. Also my gelding looks like he di 3 moths ago when i gave hi omeprizole, really laid back very little stall walkings. I do give then a pelleted mineral supplement.
Edited by daisycake123 2013-12-24 6:45 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | ausranch - 2013-12-24 10:55 AM
Buy a really high quality, soybean based ration-balancer and feed it for a few months. Progressive Nutrition makes the one we feed and recommend. Buckeye & Woody's have good ones we have used and liked too. Any of those three are good and it depends on what's available in your area.
Then look at your horse - you'll see a huge difference! I believe my eyes and my experience in this business a LONG time before some vegetarian blogger.
And I'm pretty darn sure those premium feeds do what they do because of the real research done by people with PhDs and base their decisions on science. Not so much vegetarian bloggers. . . .
I can just see a "vegetarian blogger" hunched over his or her pc with carrot stains on their shirt. Great term.
As to the nutritionist having a say about all that goes in the feed, let me shed a little light on that from 30 years of experience in development, formulation, manufacture and marketing of premium horse health products for a number of feed companies. First, in most cases the nutritionist and formulator are usually not the same person. The nutritionist says what the horse needs, the formulators job is to try to put it together in a way that would fit the manufacturing capabilities of the feed mill. This used to be how most premium feeds were done, before the move to least cost formulation so common today. There is information required by law on the bag. Protein, fat, and fiber. Today, in many companies, there is a buyer who purchases ingredients on the commodity market that can be combined to hit those required numbers at the lowest cost to the manufacturer. Today one combination, tomorrow a different one. Often, the only thing that is exactly the same from one production run to another is the bag. This is least cost formulation. We have all seen this in feeds that look very different from one purchase to another. You can usually identify it by the tag added to the bag with ingredients listed, often in vague byproduct catigories. This is easy to change from lot to lot by just printing another tag. Let me say that there are in fact great feed companies that still do fixed formulation. In my opinion, this is usually a better way to go. The way you can tell fix formulation is that the ingredient list is printed on the bag. Not on a tag that can be changed. The vision of great intellects in white lab coats researching away is rare today. Not unheard of, but rare. In the end, least cost is determined by a money guy, not the formulator, and certainly not the nutritionist. | |
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 Arriving at the last minute!
Posts: 5148
Location: Kansas | You can argue about anything pro or con. I have fed a cob mix mainly oats, some rolled barley, small amount of cracked corn (from a viable source) and Black oil sunflower seeds for about my whole life. I do add some rice bran for fat, Forco for the digestive, amino acid (lysine) , ground flax seed, and Redmonds Sea Salt. I haven't had ulcer issues to speak of, colic issues ever, never a hot horse, and they look fabulous. I don't ever want to feed a processed feed, don't like soybean stuff, hate beet pulp, alfalfa pellets ( you don't know the quality) and no vegetable oils either. I feel a good clean natural grain can never be beat! And the key is moderation. I think most all horses I have ever had get 3 to 5 lbs a day of grain. Never give tons of any grain. I have seen so many of these big name feeds and they give the amount to feed and I about fall over and the feed is astronomically high priced! I do not have a degree in nutrition and most I see that do will say to do the total opposite I think they teach a certain way in schools. Then there are those that are vegetarians and health nuts and they will take you the other route. Thats more my style and to each their own!!!
Edited by amy laymon 2013-12-24 10:38 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | amy laymon - 2013-12-24 10:37 PM
You can argue about anything pro or con. I have fed a cob mix mainly oats, some rolled barley, small amount of cracked corn (from a viable source) and Black oil sunflower seeds for about my whole life. I do add some rice bran for fat, Forco for the digestive, amino acid (lysine) , ground flax seed, and Redmonds Sea Salt. I haven't had ulcer issues to speak of, colic issues ever, never a hot horse, and they look fabulous. I don't ever want to feed a processed feed, don't like soybean stuff, hate beet pulp, alfalfa pellets ( you don't know the quality) and no vegetable oils either. I feel a good clean natural grain can never be beat! And the key is moderation. I think most all horses I have ever had get 3 to 5 lbs a day of grain. Never give tons of any grain. I have seen so many of these big name feeds and they give the amount to feed and I about fall over and the feed is astronomically high priced! I do not have a degree in nutrition and most I see that do will say to do the total opposite I think they teach a certain way in schools. Then there are those that are vegetarians and health nuts and they will take you the other route. Thats more my style and to each their own!!!
I agree with just about everything you said. And, you said it well. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 830
Location: Paradise , tx | amy laymon - 2013-12-24 10:37 PM You can argue about anything pro or con. I have fed a cob mix mainly oats, some rolled barley, small amount of cracked corn (from a viable source) and Black oil sunflower seeds for about my whole life. I do add some rice bran for fat, Forco for the digestive, amino acid (lysine) , ground flax seed, and Redmonds Sea Salt. I haven't had ulcer issues to speak of, colic issues ever, never a hot horse, and they look fabulous. I don't ever want to feed a processed feed, don't like soybean stuff, hate beet pulp, alfalfa pellets ( you don't know the quality) and no vegetable oils either. I feel a good clean natural grain can never be beat! And the key is moderation. I think most all horses I have ever had get 3 to 5 lbs a day of grain. Never give tons of any grain. I have seen so many of these big name feeds and they give the amount to feed and I about fall over and the feed is astronomically high priced! I do not have a degree in nutrition and most I see that do will say to do the total opposite I think they teach a certain way in schools. Then there are those that are vegetarians and health nuts and they will take you the other route. Thats more my style and to each their own!!!
I agree that most companies recommend to much grain. It shocks me also. Like you, I only feed 3 to 5 lbs of grain a day. Really surprised that more horses don't have more problems from eating to much grain. I know if they are riden hard there might be exceptions, you kind of have to judge each one individually, but I think a mostly grass, hay diet is best. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | Tailwind - 2013-12-25 5:47 AM amy laymon - 2013-12-24 10:37 PM You can argue about anything pro or con. I have fed a cob mix mainly oats, some rolled barley, small amount of cracked corn (from a viable source) and Black oil sunflower seeds for about my whole life. I do add some rice bran for fat, Forco for the digestive, amino acid (lysine) , ground flax seed, and Redmonds Sea Salt. I haven't had ulcer issues to speak of, colic issues ever, never a hot horse, and they look fabulous. I don't ever want to feed a processed feed, don't like soybean stuff, hate beet pulp, alfalfa pellets ( you don't know the quality) and no vegetable oils either. I feel a good clean natural grain can never be beat! And the key is moderation. I think most all horses I have ever had get 3 to 5 lbs a day of grain. Never give tons of any grain. I have seen so many of these big name feeds and they give the amount to feed and I about fall over and the feed is astronomically high priced! I do not have a degree in nutrition and most I see that do will say to do the total opposite I think they teach a certain way in schools. Then there are those that are vegetarians and health nuts and they will take you the other route. Thats more my style and to each their own!!! I agree that most companies recommend to much grain. It shocks me also. Like you, I only feed 3 to 5 lbs of grain a day. Really surprised that more horses don't have more problems from eating to much grain. I know if they are riden hard there might be exceptions, you kind of have to judge each one individually, but I think a mostly grass, hay diet is best.
I have never fed more than 3 lbs of any feed in my life! that was all I fed my broodie and her babies. We have high quality hay here and most horses do not need anything more than a ration balancer. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 830
Location: Paradise , tx | We also are really lucky to have some really great hay bought from the guy down the road who raises hay. But 27 years ago when I boarded my horses, you wouldn't believe the amount of grain some feed ( or maybe you would) | |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| I don't see how people feed so much grain either. I know a lot of people who feed 10 to 12 lbs per day! First of all, I couldn't afford that and second of all I'd have fire breathing loony monsters that I couldn't ride! | |
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