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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | Is it something that a trainer can instill in a horse, the horse's natural ability (agility/just certain conformation styles) , or jockeying? Or all those factors and then some? I just see some horses run and they make the turns look so effortless... and then I see some horses that look like they freeze up right after they finish a turn. Is something that a horse can gain further down the road with more experience? |
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 Expert
Posts: 3004
 
Location: nearby | I think, for the most part, it is natural ability. However, I feel the person that breaks the horse and puts a handle on him and trains him helps bring out this natural ability to turn. In other words, the rider has to know how to find this natural ability. JMHO |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If you are talking about the top trainers, they can make a free runner look like a ratey horse.
I have only had one free runner, and when I look back on the videos, she looked like she rated all of her barrels naturally, but her new owner has learned that she must rate her own before her barrels.
When I was training my free runner yes she did stall on the back side of her turns, and I had to be very conscious of where my hand ones, leaving the barrel I couldn't be on her face.
A horse with natural rate, I love these ones more as I find it is easier to train, and I don't have to think as much. I just have to keep their shape and keep their feet moving.
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-03-21 8:51 AM
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I think training can manipulate a horses natural tendencies. A friend of mine had a horse who she said had no natural rate at all. She had to slow work her between every run. She was rodeoing on her and said there were many times she would have to find a trash can in the parking lot and work her on rate.
I do believe some horses are naturally turn or naturally free. But I think the trainer with the right skills can free up a turny horse or instill rate in a free runner. I think its why you can see horses run and a lot of times know who trained them. |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | It has to be partially instilled in training. I have 3 horses that I've trained and not one of them will run by a barrel, even the off the track gelding. In fact he's the turniest of them all. What gets me is that I don't ever stop them at a barrel in slow work, I just change my body position and move my hand a little to tell them its time to turn. Every single one of them has figured it out and been pretty ratey from the get-go. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | I think you can teach a horse to turn, but its far more fun to ride the ones that just "have it" due to genetics!  Natural athletic ability is more fun to ride than man made in my opinion:) |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-21 9:23 AM
It has to be partially instilled in training. I have 3 horses that I've trained and not one of them will run by a barrel, even the off the track gelding. In fact he's the turniest of them all. What gets me is that I don't ever stop them at a barrel in slow work, I just change my body position and move my hand a little to tell them its time to turn. Every single one of them has figured it out and been pretty ratey from the get-go.
Totally agree with this. Have always had people tell me mine all work the same. I don't believe in stopping them on the barrels either just subtle cues that with time and repetition they all get! Now if one is freezing up on the backside you prolly have a soreness issue (for the OP) |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | mreklaw - 2014-03-21 12:48 PM rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-21 9:23 AM It has to be partially instilled in training. I have 3 horses that I've trained and not one of them will run by a barrel, even the off the track gelding. In fact he's the turniest of them all. What gets me is that I don't ever stop them at a barrel in slow work, I just change my body position and move my hand a little to tell them its time to turn. Every single one of them has figured it out and been pretty ratey from the get-go. Totally agree with this. Have always had people tell me mine all work the same. I don't believe in stopping them on the barrels either just subtle cues that with time and repetition they all get! Now if one is freezing up on the backside you prolly have a soreness issue (for the OP )
Mine are getting to that point too. I will say that Joker used to hang up on the backside and it was because I was pulling on his face at that point of the turn. Started running my hand up his neck and he quit hanging up. So while it could be soreness, make sure you watch a video to see if you're inadvertently causing it.
here are videos of my 3 to show the similarities in their style.
Joker - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVc1xIkUALs
Chance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGfVj7aPTIE and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sse3OnxRivk
Clifford - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsd3LOOGGT0 |
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| which horse did you get from JeffRutland.....? Just curious as I begin to watch the videos :) |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | mouse - 2014-03-21 2:00 PM which horse did you get from JeffRutland.....? Just curious as I begin to watch the videos :)
In case anyone else is curious - the Rutland horse is my current prospect & he's just trotting the pattern. So far he is acting like he'll be pretty turny too. Go figure. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/royal+red+streaker
Clifford is http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/behold+he+reigns
Chance - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/harlans+dash
Joker is grade. |
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Location: Texas | IMO it has A LOT to do with breeding. The more the horse throws back to cow horse lines the more turn they seem to have or rate you Could say.
They are bred to watch a cow, and they wil do the same with a barrel.
Now I've seen some horses that are race bred that are ratey but they are far and few between, unless it's been instilled in them from day one.
All in all I think it comes down to it being natural for some horses |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| F1NoniStephenville - 2014-03-21 9:56 PM
IMO it has A LOT to do with breeding. The more the horse throws back to cow horse lines the more turn they seem to have or rate you Could say.
They are bred to watch a cow, and they wil do the same with a barrel.
Now I've seen some horses that are race bred that are ratey but they are far and few between, unless it's been instilled in them from day one.
All in all I think it comes down to it being natural for some horses
I agree it has a lot to do with breeding, that is why Frenchmans Guy, DTF are all wanted.
I sold one dashing cleat that was so much fun. You could send her in as fast as possible to her first and she would not even run 1/2 stride by. I have one dashing cleat left and she is the same way.
I have also became hooked on firewater flits too as the ones I watch are 4 wheel drive around the barrels. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I love free runners, my retired mare in a small indoor run her as hard as she could go and she would not,pass a barrel. In a bigger pen go hard as you want all u had to,do is when you wanted rate do a little tug that most people could not,see about 10 foot from the barrel, she would give the same run all day long and no tuning needed, a dream to own, the ground was bad in a indoor at the second barrel my draw was like number 12 and 4 of 5 horses feel in that drag she tore her stifle. If i could have been able to,see in the area, would never sent her in there. I am still as crazy about her even though she has not been sound for,4 years. Nice yearling from her looks just like her. Gonna not ride her get her broke to,having a saddle and driving her this summer. |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | F1NoniStephenville - 2014-03-21 9:56 PM
IMO it has A LOT to do with breeding. The more the horse throws back to cow horse lines the more turn they seem to have or rate you Could say.
They are bred to watch a cow, and they wil do the same with a barrel.
Now I've seen some horses that are race bred that are ratey but they are far and few between, unless it's been instilled in them from day one.
All in all I think it comes down to it being natural for some horses
This is really not true and is a very common misconception. I have a friend that had a TB mare that was one of the most naturally ratey horses ever. She whipped her all the way to the first just to get by it. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stylish+ensign I've also seen my share of runaway cowbreds. There are certain lines, though, that have a lot of turn to them. Dash Ta Fame is one of them, which is why they are so popular. Not only do they have the speed of a racehorse, they typically really crave the turn. I personally think it's the Tiny's Gay in them. Every Tiny's Gay bred horse I've ever seen was turny. I also love Real Ease horses....natural barrel horses, every one of them. Every Flit Bar bred horse I've ever seen or ridden was turny, which is another reason they're so popular. Another one that a lot of people overlook, but shouldn't, are the Red's Western Natives. I've had 3 own sons and every single one of them were born barrel horses. Show them the pattern, and they were running and turning hard.....takes about 30 days and you're ready to enter. Easiest horses to run barrels on that I've ever owned....and most of the people I've talked to that own them say the same thing....it's hard to buy them, though....no one wants to sell them. lol Mine were straight racebred top and bottom; not an ounce of cow breeding anywhere and they were VERY ratey on their own. Here is one:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hand+it+to+parker I also rodeoed with a gal that rode a mare that had a 92 on the track and I believe had 30+starts, and she patterned her for just a little while and went to winning everywhere. That mare was straight racebred, but her owner said she thought turning was fun and took to the barrels like a duck to water. Here is her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sandy+said+no Of course, I have 40+ years of doing this to ride a lot of horses and find out that turn doesn't necessarily mean cowbred...if you like your racebreds, there ARE lines out there that love to turn.
Edited by dianeguinn 2014-03-22 9:29 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| I totally agree with Diane...........there are plenty of racebreds who crave a turn. We had an appendix mare who ran the pasture as a baby colt, doing nothing but screeching stops and turnarounds..........it followed through in her barrelracing career...........you couldn't even "think turn" and she was turning.........She was tall and lean, but we knew she'd be a barrel horse by how she was as a baby |
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Location: Texas | Like I said IMO, it's what I've found to be true. I have four cow bred horses each one is ratey and Turny. I had multiple track bred and they were free runners with less rate, but there is always exceptions :)
My mare is cutting bred and trained. She gets real
Low and ratey, her full brother was not cutting trained and he is the same way. |
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Pig-Bear Dog Lover
| Imo its called COW ..I will take a prospect with cow and natural rate over one on the track. They're just so much easier. I personally cant stand one that your constantly having to worry about rating and "checking" halfway between the barrels.. then checking again before you turn. I like one you can push all the way. I know there are some lines that arnt cow that you can push I like those too. With that said it is really a gamble with prospects training can minipulate they're style but it will take consistant work and the results may not be instilled for the long run. Its super annoying to have a horse that doesn't rate and want to do their job with out constant training. It makes me think they really don't get it or never will. You see these SUPER fast race horses with say for example ocean runaway.. that are 2d horses because they have no rate all run. Even at that to maintain that 2d time is consistant training.. so not worth it especially for what you pay for the bloodlines. Race horse people are always trying to sell their off the track horses as barrel horses for high dollars.. when its like 25xs as hard to get those going. Again this is just my opinion. I prefer a horse that"gets it" and you can trust them 100% to do their job once trained. Not worry if your going to run by a barrel. There are so many variables .. of course the rider has a lot to do with it too. |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| You guys can keep your cow horses, I'll stick to my ratey, turny race breds. It is a combination of desire and willingness to work, as well as training. They must also be pain free to want to turn. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Thanks so much, everyone!!! Love all the input |
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