|
|
Expert
Posts: 2685
   
| How important is it on a set of "nicely" bred papers for the horses Dam to be proven?
(Speaking of papers only. Like if you were looking at un-ride-able prospects)
No stipulation on the papers. I'm doing this to learn and show some friends of mine. This particular mare is a granddaughter of a few very BIG named horses. I am trying to tell them they should rodeo/ show her to prove her before making another "never done nothing broodmare"
Edited by RoaniePonie11 2014-11-18 6:34 PM
|
|
| |
|
 Veteran
Posts: 164
| It depends, is no horse in the dams lineage is proven, then its pretty useless, if just the dam isn't proven, but the dam's sire or dam IS proven, then you could be totally fine. Also, is the stud proven? I think I need more info to vote adequately. |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Is the dam a proven producer or performer? I think if the dam has a weaker pedigree performance would be really important. If the dam has a really solid pedigree with generations of winners, it matters less. Better if it's an own daughter though. That being said proven producers don't have to have a performance record, no matter their pedigree. lol. But that may take a while and someone taking a chance on them. Of them all I think the last is most important in terms of a prospect. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2685
| bump
|
|
| |
|
  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I think it can go either way. I have seen dams that haven't done a thing produce like mad and then others that ran out $800k and were bred to the best of the best can't produce a $5 winner. For me, my pocket book doesn't run deep enough to buy stakes winners and it would be stupid for me to spend that kind of money when we breed just a handful of May babies that are targeted for some barrel races. I can't afford to breed to $5000 studs either. I buy the best that I can while keeping disposition, conformation and the breeding I want in my program. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3147
| It's according to how much money is being asked for the prospect. I'll give more for a prospect who's dam is proven, but it won't keep me from looking if the prospect is reasonably priced. I looked at a green two year old whose sire and dam were nicely bred, but neither has produced anything nor did either have a record of their own. I felt $6500.00 was too much and passed. |
|
| |
|
 Saint Stacey
| The very bottomside of a pedigree is always the weakest. When I see a strong bottom of producers and performers, I get all giddy, lol! I also look at how many broodmare sires are in the bottom. I have 3 mares now that all have the same dam. All have different sires. The dams sire line goes Bully Bullion, Royal Quick Dash, Hempen, Go Flight. All those stallions are broodmare sires. All the females are proven. If I ever want to start breeding, I already am way ahead of most simply because of how strong the pedigrees are. Plus they all have the looks to match the papers and they are all beautiful movers with quick feet. I believe in the full package to increase your chance of success. Doesn't matter if it's for breeding or performing. The same rules apply. I loathe the saying "you can't ride papers". If papers didn't matter, then why do we have breeders associations that keep track? Why then can we track the lineage back to the 1700's in many cases? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2685
| SKM - 2014-11-19 7:11 AM
The very bottomside of a pedigree is always the weakest. When I see a strong bottom of producers and performers, I get all giddy, lol! I also look at how many broodmare sires are in the bottom. I have 3 mares now that all have the same dam. All have different sires. The dams sire line goes Bully Bullion, Royal Quick Dash, Hempen, Go Flight. All those stallions are broodmare sires. All the females are proven. If I ever want to start breeding, I already am way ahead of most simply because of how strong the pedigrees are. Plus they all have the looks to match the papers and they are all beautiful movers with quick feet. I believe in the full package to increase your chance of success. Doesn't matter if it's for breeding or performing. The same rules apply. I loathe the saying "you can't ride papers". If papers didn't matter, then why do we have breeders associations that keep track? Why then can we track the lineage back to the 1700's in many cases?
The like button is gone but THANK YOU lol. I am the same way, when looking at a horse if I see a strong Dams side I get much more interested in that horse. I have heard many- a - time that the dams pass on 80% of their traits ect well then why the heck are we breeding "weak" mares??
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1314
Location: North Central Iowa Land of white frozen grass | Because you have to have some genetic diversity or we would all be riding the same line bred horses. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| It depends on what I'm looking for and how much. There are three factors that figure into a you g prospect's value, assuming sire is proven producer/performer with proven pedigree and baby is well put together and not crazy/lame/sick.
Is dam proven performer?
Is dam proven producer?
Is dam's pedigree full of winners?
To ask top dollar for a prospect you'd need all three. Two out of three aren't bad. One out of three and you're in the average category. (I say this having bought a prospect who was the maiden foal out of an unproven dam with a stellar pedigree, by a stud who had all three going on. He's a NICE horse, even though I just put his dam in the 'average' category. I got a fantastic deal on a high quality colt. His dam's lack of performance was not her fault and didn't effect her genetics. I took a gamble on her first foal because I believed in the sire and liked the dam's papers and he was put together nice and was good minded). But as a breeder you have to know that only having one out of three you aren't going to be able to ask much for the babies.
|
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I'm not saying you don't need a strong dam line, but one person's version of acceptable is different than another. I have owned several broodmares that were ROM on the track and produced a winner or 2. So at least someone thought enough of them to give them a try. Most were out of dam's that had produced stakes winners. Some $10,000 some $100k. I can afford those mares and justify breeding them to my own stud. Most also had 2nd and 3rd dam's that have produced black type. I also want good broodmare sires all along the female family like SKM said.
I don't breed to DTF or FG so spending $10k on a broodmare would be a waste of my money and a nice mare. I can't talk the husband into that kind of investment. I have seen more people put $25k+ into getting a baby on the ground and let me tell you, if they are honest with themselves, they aren't all getting that $87k return. Most have another line of work that supports their horse habit. I do not. Or at least can't justify my husband working 5 days on the road away from home hauling cattle so I can spend the money on fancy mares.
So my whole point is, there are a lot of nice programs with really nice mares, that aren't proven themselves, but are generally more affordable. Some of the best producers were injured young. But to answer your origional question, if they are just grand daughters, unless they are huge winning barrel horses or whatever event, they will need to go above and beyond to be noticed when there are so many affordable own daughters of greats.
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| RoaniePonie11 - 2014-11-18 5:58 PM
How important is it on a set of "nicely" bred papers for the horses Dam to be proven?
(Speaking of papers only. Like if you were looking at un-ride-able prospects)
No stipulation on the papers. I'm doing this to learn and show some friends of mine. This particular mare is a granddaughter of a few very BIG named horses. I am trying to tell them they should rodeo/ show her to prove her before making another "never done nothing broodmare"
She would need to be the direct daughter of 'big named' horses to be able to get away with a lack of performance herself; and even then it would lower the value of the foal. |
|
| |
|
 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | It depends what price range they will market the babies. There's the group that are hard to give away, the less than $5K, between 5K and 10K and then there is the "rare air" group that are being marketed for 10K and up. If you expect to be above the "you can't give them away" group, you have to have some decent pedigrees and proven producers. For ME, the mare herself doesn't have to perform but I want up close performers and producers. I'm on a budget and I'd rather buy an unproven mare with a stellar pedigree, conformation and dispostion that may have had an unfortunate accident that kept her from performing. Because if she had performed, she would be out of my budget and years older. I also like them young so I have time to get babies on the ground to PROVE her producing ability. In the barrel racing game, a stallion or mare will be 7-10 years old before they ever get a performing foal. If the first few crops don't make it to the pen for any reason, you've lost years of work.
Just because a mare isn't proven herself, doesn't mean she won't be a great producer. It happens all the time in every discipline. But you have to be realistic about the mare's marketability. There are 54684616516 mares for sale every day that aren't worth breeding for market foals IMO. Doesn't mean they won't put a good baby on the ground. But they won't "market" well. |
|
| |
|
Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| In my front pasture i have two unraced mares and one unplaced mare. All three have outstanding female families...and all three are stakes producers.
I look for female family above all else. I don't buy anything I wouldn't mind keeping forever and breeding. It makes it a lot easier to look at them when I'm feeding them. It also makes it easier and harder when I sell one. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | One of the reasons I bought and love my Shawne Bug mare is not just because of her awesome sire side but because she has a really really strong bottom side. Every single horse on her papers has won something as have most all of her brothers and sisters. She broke her neck very young and was never ridden. Perfect broodmare prospect. She had also proven herself as a producer too a bit. Its my goal to have everyone talking about the babies I have raised out of her too. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2685
| Thank you to everyone!
I have some friends looking into a carona cartel/ first down dash (on papers) 3yo filly (sound) for occasional trail riding and broodmare and I'm like OMG if I could afford that filly, trail riding would NOT be her only job. That and the fact that I have 3 "ain't done nothing broodmares" at home. Like some mentioned, the 2 I bought as broodmares I would not have been able to afford if they were proven. The other, was hammered on as a baby and I didn't realize what kind of a toll it had taken on her body until she came up lame one day and hasn't been sound since. Thank the lord she is bred and built nice. |
|
| |
Folks on-line