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 Hawty & Nawty
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | kdb2qq - 2014-11-20 9:43 AM SC Wrangler - 2014-11-19 6:55 PM Funny how the LGBTQ is all about freedom of expression and speech for themselves, but not for anyone who disagrees with their platform. SC, I respect your opinions completely. I lurk quite a bit, but don't post that much. That's a blanket statement though. I'm a part of that "community", but I am just as much for freedom of expression for anyone who disagrees with me as someone who agrees with me. Just wanted to throw that out there...
I am a very open and socially liberal individual. I have absolutely no issues with the LGBTQ community or their lifestyle. Additionally I have no issue with those that believe only in traditional marriage. They are each entitled to their opinions and their lifestyle. I really don't understand the inability to live and let live. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 432
Location: Tennessee | SC Wrangler - 2014-11-20 6:48 PM
kdb2qq - 2014-11-20 9:43 AM SC Wrangler - 2014-11-19 6:55 PM Funny how the LGBTQ is all about freedom of expression and speech for themselves, but not for anyone who disagrees with their platform. SC, I respect your opinions completely. I lurk quite a bit, but don't post that much. That's a blanket statement though. I'm a part of that "community", but I am just as much for freedom of expression for anyone who disagrees with me as someone who agrees with me. Just wanted to throw that out there...
I agree 100%, live and let live. I don't force my opinions or lifestyle on anyone. Guess it's just a sore spot when I'm sometimes lumped in the same category as someone trying to shove their opinions down someone else's throat.  | |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | I saw this post on FB yesterday. Actually MANY of the responds were from gays or lesbians and they liked the show or supported that they had a right to their beliefs. There were some very well thought out responds.
I personally would boycott TLC for canceling "19 Kids..." if they gave into this petition. My kids and I watch the show EVERY Tuesday and love it. It has opened up several opportunities for me to talk to my kids about modesty, manners, respecting the of the opposite sex, good morals.... My daughter even wants to read the book the oldest daughters put out this summer. Thank-you God, that my daughter respects those girls and not someone like Kim K.
Here is what upsets me, back many years ago, NOBODY thought anything of large families and the older kids helped to take care of the younger ones. They worked hard, most of the time lived off little and went to church on Sundays. Mom tended to the home and dad worked. This was not sexist, that was life. I can almost guarantee, it too that those children were forced to grow-up much faster and work MUCH harder then any of the Dugger children will ever know or experience.
I have watched the show for YEARS and it appears all of those kids are well adjusted and happy. I only wish I could take my kids on the trips like the Duggers have gone on over time. They have had some GREAT life experiences. I see nothing wrong with traditional roles and the older kids helping with the younger ones. I don't understand why that upsets so many people. They are not marring their daughters off in their early teens, they don't beat their kids and they don't keep their children from experiencing life (all the older daughters/sons are learning a trade outside of the home and they do things separately from the younger children).
I BELIEVE in GOD and the TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE! and so do the Duggers. Of all the episodes I have watched, I have never heard the Duggers bash other's life style. Not even close but yes it is clear they believe in the Bible and like it or not, the Bible is clear on what is and isn't a sin. Personally as a Christian, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home but I do get tired of SOME crying how "we can have our lifestyle and have our voices" but "you CAN'T have yours and keep your opinions to yourself." It is such a double standard these days and that is what I get so tired of and that double standard covers a WIDE topic of social issues.
Uncountable men and women have died DEFENDING OUR FREEDOMS, it is just a shame that some close minded people are trying to take those freedoms away everyday. It boils down to this, if you don't like what the Duggers stand for then turn the channel and don't read their articles. I do it to MANY other TV shows everyday. Everyone has the freedom to choose. | |
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Location: USA | Rolling J - 2014-11-20 9:03 PM I saw this post on FB yesterday. Actually MANY of the responds were from gays or lesbians and they liked the show or supported that they had a right to their beliefs. There were some very well thought out responds. I personally would boycott TLC for canceling "19 Kids..." if they gave into this petition. My kids and I watch the show EVERY Tuesday and love it. It has opened up several opportunities for me to talk to my kids about modesty, manners, respecting the of the opposite sex, good morals.... My daughter even wants to read the book the oldest daughters put out this summer. Thank-you God, that my daughter respects those girls and not someone like Kim K. Here is what upsets me, back many years ago, NOBODY thought anything of large families and the older kids helped to take care of the younger ones. They worked hard, most of the time lived off little and went to church on Sundays. Mom tended to the home and dad worked. This was not sexist, that was life. I can almost guarantee, it too that those children were forced to grow-up much faster and work MUCH harder then any of the Dugger children will ever know or experience. I have watched the show for YEARS and it appears all of those kids are well adjusted and happy. I only wish I could take my kids on the trips like the Duggers have gone on over time. They have had some GREAT life experiences. I see nothing wrong with traditional roles and the older kids helping with the younger ones. I don't understand why that upsets so many people. They are not marring their daughters off in their early teens, they don't beat their kids and they don't keep their children from experiencing life (all the older daughters/sons are learning a trade outside of the home and they do things separately from the younger children ). I BELIEVE in GOD and the TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE! and so do the Duggers. Of all the episodes I have watched, I have never heard the Duggers bash other's life style. Not even close but yes it is clear they believe in the Bible and like it or not, the Bible is clear on what is and isn't a sin. Personally as a Christian, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home but I do get tired of SOME crying how "we can have our lifestyle and have our voices" but "you CAN'T have yours and keep your opinions to yourself." It is such a double standard these days and that is what I get so tired of and that double standard covers a WIDE topic of social issues. Uncountable men and women have died DEFENDING OUR FREEDOMS, it is just a shame that some close minded people are trying to take those freedoms away everyday. It boils down to this, if you don't like what the Duggers stand for then turn the channel and don't read their articles. I do it to MANY other TV shows everyday. Everyone has the freedom to choose.
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Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | kramerica - 2014-11-19 11:54 PM
Good! They are part of a religious sect that is cult-like, imho. Girls/women have one role and one role only. J-chelle is a broodmare. I have always felt so sorry for the girls especially in this family. They are treated like built in babysitters and then are expected to be broodies themselves when they turn 18. No higher education for any of these poor kids.
Have you even watched the show or read anything about the Duggers? Jill was married at the age of 23 and Jessa at the age of 22. And gasp, Jenna, their oldest daughter, is 24 and NOT MARRIED. Hardly, think they are shoving them out the door "to be broodies when they turn 18." Jill was/is a successful mid-wife and by her own accounts loves her job very much. I also remember the episode where a couple of the girls were training to be EMT's with the local fire department, plus some of the older girls are also successful authors. And as far as Jill and Derek having a baby right away, they openly talk about how THEY CHOOSE not to use birth control and they view children as a blessing.
Why if a woman chooses to have kids and be a stay at home mother, make them a "broodmare" or a "religious sect that is cult-like?" Who cares if Michelle chooses to have 19 kids, her body and her life. Why is loving children a bad thing? Meanwhile women pop out NUMEROUS kids everyday to several different fathers and keep collecting the welfare checks. Does that make them "cult like?" But it is not OK for a stable, loving, self supporting family to have as many kids as they choose?
Also, since when is women having traditional roles such a bad thing? I personally think the most awarding but hardest job in the world is being a mother. Not everyone chooses to have kids and that is the right thing for them, just as it is the right thing for others to have a many as they choose. For me personally, when I was younger, my mind set was "I will never be a stay at home mother." Now in my 40's, I would give my right arm to be a "traditional family." I realize the need and importance of the mother taking care of the home but two kids is all I can handle. However, our neighbor up the road has 12 and loves everyone of them very much. They own successful gyms, are self supported and Christians! Dang these "cult" families are everywhere 
Edited by Rolling J 2014-11-20 10:23 PM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Rolling J - 2014-11-20 11:12 PM kramerica - 2014-11-19 11:54 PM Good! They are part of a religious sect that is cult-like, imho. Girls/women have one role and one role only. J-chelle is a broodmare. I have always felt so sorry for the girls especially in this family. They are treated like built in babysitters and then are expected to be broodies themselves when they turn 18. No higher education for any of these poor kids. Have you even watched the show or read anything about the Duggers? Jill was married at the age of 23 and Jessa at the age of 22. And gasp, Jenna, their oldest daughter, is 24 and NOT MARRIED. Hardly, think they are shoving them out the door "to be broodies when they turn 18." Jill was/is a successful mid-wife and by her own accounts loves her job very much. I also remember the episode where a couple of the girls were training to be EMT's with the local fire department, plus some of the older girls are also successful authors. And as far as Jill and Derek having a baby right away, they openly talk about how THEY CHOOSE not to use birth control and they view children as a blessing. Why if a woman chooses to have kids and be a stay at home mother, make them a "broodmare" or a "religious sect that is cult-like?" Who cares if Michelle chooses to have 19 kids, her body and her life. Why is loving children a bad thing? Meanwhile women pop out NUMEROUS kids everyday to several different fathers and keep collecting the welfare checks. Does that make them "cult like?" But it is not OK for a stable, loving, self supporting family to have as many kids as they choose? Since when is women having traditional roles such a bad thing? I personally think the most awarding but hardest job in the world is being a mother. Not everyone chooses to have kids and that is the right thing for them, just as it is the right thing for others to have a many as they choose. For me personally, when I was younger, my mind set was "I will never be a stay at home mother." Now in my 40's, I would give my right arm to be a "traditional family." I realize the need and importance of the mother taking care of the home but two kids is all I can handle. However, our neighbor up the road has 12 and loves everyone of them very much and they are not in a cult.
I agree with you rolling J..
and really dont watch it .. have once or twice .. they seem really nice faithful to god people.. sweet as well.. the only thing I disagree on is having 19 kids and making a sibling be responsible for one or 2. i dont agree with that.. baby sitting and helping yes.. but being a "parent" no.. brushing teeeth, jammies, school, getting it dressed etc.. its not their child its their parents and some to me is good but not all the time.. but i really dont think to much about any of it. lol their life their kids..better then them all running wild.. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 927
Location: Iowa | Some of the children have gone to college or taken college classes. They are raising their kids the way my parents were raised. My dad was from a large family and they had to be responsible to watch their younger siblings. They are taught to be self sufficient and respectful, nothing cult like about that. The rules of courtship are made by each child. It was stated each time that the young adults chooses (not the parents) what limits they will set for their courtship and what to save for marriage. If only more parents could parent like the Duggars and instill the values of morality and being 1 of a family, not just me me me. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 963
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas. | memory - 2014-11-20 11:22 PM
Some of the children have gone to college or taken college classes. They are raising their kids the way my parents were raised. My dad was from a large family and they had to be responsible to watch their younger siblings. They are taught to be self sufficient and respectful, nothing cult like about that. The rules of courtship are made by each child. It was stated each time that the young adults chooses (not the parents) what limits they will set for their courtship and what to save for marriage. If only more parents could parent like the Duggars and instill the values of morality and being 1 of a family, not just me me me.
I Agree 100% | |
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Location: USA | Rolling J - 2014-11-20 10:12 PM kramerica - 2014-11-19 11:54 PM Good! They are part of a religious sect that is cult-like, imho. Girls/women have one role and one role only. J-chelle is a broodmare. I have always felt so sorry for the girls especially in this family. They are treated like built in babysitters and then are expected to be broodies themselves when they turn 18. No higher education for any of these poor kids. Have you even watched the show or read anything about the Duggers? Jill was married at the age of 23 and Jessa at the age of 22. And gasp, Jenna, their oldest daughter, is 24 and NOT MARRIED. Hardly, think they are shoving them out the door "to be broodies when they turn 18." Jill was/is a successful mid-wife and by her own accounts loves her job very much. I also remember the episode where a couple of the girls were training to be EMT's with the local fire department, plus some of the older girls are also successful authors. And as far as Jill and Derek having a baby right away, they openly talk about how THEY CHOOSE not to use birth control and they view children as a blessing. Why if a woman chooses to have kids and be a stay at home mother, make them a "broodmare" or a "religious sect that is cult-like?" Who cares if Michelle chooses to have 19 kids, her body and her life. Why is loving children a bad thing? Meanwhile women pop out NUMEROUS kids everyday to several different fathers and keep collecting the welfare checks. Does that make them "cult like?" But it is not OK for a stable, loving, self supporting family to have as many kids as they choose? Also, since when is women having traditional roles such a bad thing? I personally think the most awarding but hardest job in the world is being a mother. Not everyone chooses to have kids and that is the right thing for them, just as it is the right thing for others to have a many as they choose. For me personally, when I was younger, my mind set was "I will never be a stay at home mother." Now in my 40's, I would give my right arm to be a "traditional family." I realize the need and importance of the mother taking care of the home but two kids is all I can handle. However, our neighbor up the road has 12 and loves everyone of them very much. They own successful gyms, are self supported and Christians! Dang these "cult" families are everywhere
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Location: USA | memory - 2014-11-20 11:22 PM Some of the children have gone to college or taken college classes. They are raising their kids the way my parents were raised. My dad was from a large family and they had to be responsible to watch their younger siblings. They are taught to be self sufficient and respectful, nothing cult like about that. The rules of courtship are made by each child. It was stated each time that the young adults chooses (not the parents) what limits they will set for their courtship and what to save for marriage. If only more parents could parent like the Duggars and instill the values of morality and being 1 of a family, not just me me me.
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 Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | I don't watch the show so could careless if it's cancelled and I don't particularly mind the Duggars but I do think it's irresponsible to have that many kids when the population is rising to 9 billion..... think of their impact with that many kids. grandkids etc. That being said, it is also irresponsible to have even ONE kid and not take care of it. I just think you replace yourself and that's all thats necessary in todays overpopulated world. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | rockette - 2014-11-20 12:48 PM
Many heterosexual marriages can't keep it between one man and one woman. Somehow the commandment to not commit adultery is not a big deal. But it is still a commandment.
^^^this exatly, it's funny how with religion... we pick which commands/verses we like and ignore others or rate them according to how severe we "think" they are.... I honestly don't know but God does so I guess he can judge. many things that are SAID in the bible are not followed today and no one cares less. | |
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Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | DLV - 2014-11-21 3:07 PM
rockette - 2014-11-20 12:48 PM
Many heterosexual marriages can't keep it between one man and one woman. Somehow the commandment to not commit adultery is not a big deal. But it is still a commandment.
^^^this exatly, it's funny how with religion... we pick which commands/verses we like and ignore others or rate them according to how severe we "think" they are.... I honestly don't know but God does so I guess he can judge. many things that are SAID in the bible are not followed today and no one cares less.
I think this is an unfair blanket statement. There are many, many, many (you get the idea) Christians that still see adultery as a sin. Is it any bigger or more punishable... then a "little white lie" or "be disrespectful to your parents?" Certainly not, a sin is a sin and God don't list them in numerical order from greatest to least. Do you really think every gay/lesbian couple is in a perfect, non-adultery relationship? I hardly think so. So to expect every heterosexual relationship should be perfect, is outrageous.
In my personal life, I am a youth group leader, a Sunday School teacher, I delivered the Thanksgiving message last night at our church.... but I STRUGGLE EVERYDAY with not judging others. The Bible tells me over and over again not to "judge others" but I find myself saying negative "judgmental" comments. I pray about this often, I know it is a sin but I continue to do it. However, I know this is something I need to better about myself and have shown much improvement. We are ALL SINNERS! I am and anyone reading this is and we all sin in different ways and sometimes several times a day. So just because a person does an action, it does not mean that they don't understand that it is a sin but, hopefully in the long run, they realize they need to work extra hard in bettering that area of their lives, so that they can TRUELY repent from that sin.
One of my favorite sayings ever is "Hate the sin but love the sinner!" | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 742
| Rolling J - 2014-11-20 10:12 PM kramerica - 2014-11-19 11:54 PM Good! They are part of a religious sect that is cult-like, imho. Girls/women have one role and one role only. J-chelle is a broodmare. I have always felt so sorry for the girls especially in this family. They are treated like built in babysitters and then are expected to be broodies themselves when they turn 18. No higher education for any of these poor kids. Have you even watched the show or read anything about the Duggers? Jill was married at the age of 23 and Jessa at the age of 22. And gasp, Jenna, their oldest daughter, is 24 and NOT MARRIED. Hardly, think they are shoving them out the door "to be broodies when they turn 18." Jill was/is a successful mid-wife and by her own accounts loves her job very much. I also remember the episode where a couple of the girls were training to be EMT's with the local fire department, plus some of the older girls are also successful authors. And as far as Jill and Derek having a baby right away, they openly talk about how THEY CHOOSE not to use birth control and they view children as a blessing. Why if a woman chooses to have kids and be a stay at home mother, make them a "broodmare" or a "religious sect that is cult-like?" Who cares if Michelle chooses to have 19 kids, her body and her life. Why is loving children a bad thing? Meanwhile women pop out NUMEROUS kids everyday to several different fathers and keep collecting the welfare checks. Does that make them "cult like?" But it is not OK for a stable, loving, self supporting family to have as many kids as they choose? Also, since when is women having traditional roles such a bad thing? I personally think the most awarding but hardest job in the world is being a mother. Not everyone chooses to have kids and that is the right thing for them, just as it is the right thing for others to have a many as they choose. For me personally, when I was younger, my mind set was "I will never be a stay at home mother." Now in my 40's, I would give my right arm to be a "traditional family." I realize the need and importance of the mother taking care of the home but two kids is all I can handle. However, our neighbor up the road has 12 and loves everyone of them very much. They own successful gyms, are self supported and Christians! Dang these "cult" families are everywhere
Sure have watched it and have read a lot about the group they are affiliated with which is called Quiverfull. I think the girls' lives are stifling and they are not really encouraged to do anything other than have children, lots of them.
I'm happy to see the show go because my belief is these kids have been used as pawns for J-chelle and Jim Boob. I feel so sorry for ALL the kids. It's 2014 not 1914. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 742
| memory - 2014-11-20 11:22 PM Some of the children have gone to college or taken college classes. They are raising their kids the way my parents were raised. My dad was from a large family and they had to be responsible to watch their younger siblings. They are taught to be self sufficient and respectful, nothing cult like about that. The rules of courtship are made by each child. It was stated each time that the young adults chooses (not the parents) what limits they will set for their courtship and what to save for marriage. If only more parents could parent like the Duggars and instill the values of morality and being 1 of a family, not just me me me.
Really? Which of the children went to college and what college? How many have degrees? I'll stand corrected if you have specifics.
I'll admit I haven't watched the show recently as I just can't with these foolish parents so I don't know what they specifically discuss each week.
I know their church group has some college "plus" program but it isn't accepted by any accreditted college or university in the U.S. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 927
Location: Iowa | Yes, courses in college plus. Thomas Edison State College in NJ does accept college plus credits to name one. Regional Accreditation: Regional accreditation is the most recognized form of college accreditation. State universities, Harvard, Yale, and many private colleges such as Bryan College and Liberty University are regionally accredited. Jill- taking courses in nursing, Jessa - in business, Jinger-in music, Jana is in college plus and finishing on campus. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 742
| memory - 2014-11-21 6:31 PM Yes, courses in college plus. Thomas Edison State College in NJ does accept college plus credits to name one. Regional Accreditation: Regional accreditation is the most recognized form of college accreditation. State universities, Harvard, Yale, and many private colleges such as Bryan College and Liberty University are regionally accredited. Jill- taking courses in nursing, Jessa - in business, Jinger-in music, Jana is in college plus and finishing on campus.
Collegeplus is a coaching program to CLEP out of courses. I CLEP'd out of a few courses during college but 100% of my degree came from a state university.
How many of these girl (Dugger) children will have a degree in a certain field? Once they are married don't they give up their occupation to become a mommy?
What campus is Jana attending? | |
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Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | kramerica - 2014-11-21 5:28 PM
Rolling J - 2014-11-20 10:12 PM kramerica - 2014-11-19 11:54 PM Good! They are part of a religious sect that is cult-like, imho. Girls/women have one role and one role only. J-chelle is a broodmare. I have always felt so sorry for the girls especially in this family. They are treated like built in babysitters and then are expected to be broodies themselves when they turn 18. No higher education for any of these poor kids. Have you even watched the show or read anything about the Duggers? Jill was married at the age of 23 and Jessa at the age of 22. And gasp, Jenna, their oldest daughter, is 24 and NOT MARRIED. Hardly, think they are shoving them out the door "to be broodies when they turn 18." Jill was/is a successful mid-wife and by her own accounts loves her job very much. I also remember the episode where a couple of the girls were training to be EMT's with the local fire department, plus some of the older girls are also successful authors. And as far as Jill and Derek having a baby right away, they openly talk about how THEY CHOOSE not to use birth control and they view children as a blessing. Why if a woman chooses to have kids and be a stay at home mother, make them a "broodmare" or a "religious sect that is cult-like?" Who cares if Michelle chooses to have 19 kids, her body and her life. Why is loving children a bad thing? Meanwhile women pop out NUMEROUS kids everyday to several different fathers and keep collecting the welfare checks. Does that make them "cult like?" But it is not OK for a stable, loving, self supporting family to have as many kids as they choose? Also, since when is women having traditional roles such a bad thing? I personally think the most awarding but hardest job in the world is being a mother. Not everyone chooses to have kids and that is the right thing for them, just as it is the right thing for others to have a many as they choose. For me personally, when I was younger, my mind set was "I will never be a stay at home mother." Now in my 40's, I would give my right arm to be a "traditional family." I realize the need and importance of the mother taking care of the home but two kids is all I can handle. However, our neighbor up the road has 12 and loves everyone of them very much. They own successful gyms, are self supported and Christians! Dang these "cult" families are everywhere
I'm happy to see the show go because my belief is these kids have been used as pawns for J-chelle and Jim Boob. I feel so sorry for ALL the kids. It's 2014 not 1914.
Why is it so hard for you to remotely understand that some women DO VIEW children as a BLESSING? It is their right to choose if they want to use birth control or not. This does not make them a cult. I googled Duggers and Quiverfull...most of the articles were the writers tell why "they" think the Duggers are part of the quivrfull movement. Other articles such as this one http://allirose.hubpages.com/hub/Why-Michelle-Duggar-Does-Not-Follo... states they are not. Now granted I did not spend hours reading each article, but I did not find one where the Duggars called themselves "quiverfulls." I did find where THEY call themselves "fundamental Baptist." In addition, Michelle is NOT against all birth control and they practice their own form of it. It is just not in a form of a pill or insert. They base their on more biblical teachings; these methods would not be my own personal preferences but I could care less about what they do in the privacy of their bedroom.
It is sad that fundamental Christian women who choose to raise their families, stay at home and have as many children they want are bashed by so many because it is not the same lifestyle as them. These women view caring for their husbands, home and children as THEIR JOBS and they do it with a glad heart. Yes, if you try to live by the word of the Bible, the Bible states the man is the head of the house but it also states that the man is to treat his wife with respect. I personally, think Michelle and Jim Bob achieve this. I also believe the people calling the Duggars narrow minded, judgmental people need to look within themselves and quit worrying so much about others. No one is bring up the millions of women all across this country that keep having kid after kid to collect the welfare check. These women also choose not to use birth control, but that is OK too because all the free condoms, my tax dollars are buying to stock in all the free clinics, are not easy to come by (insert total sarcasm). However, the Duggars are self supporting, their kids cared for, loved, clothed, feed and educated and they are "cult" like.
Very honestly, the longer this post goes on the more I am beginning to have a harder time understanding why there is so much dislike towards this family, so I have said my pace and I am sure everyone knows where I stand of this topic by now. LOL!!! If you don't like the Duggars don't watch them, YOUR freedom, YOUR choice!!!! However, there are those of us who do like them and I sincerely hope TLC keeps them on the air. Love me some Duck Dynasty too!!!! | |
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 Love Me Some Robert Redford
Posts: 2335
Location: WV | I do watch the show sometimes and I like it. To some that have mentioned about how they afford this many kids. I've heard that they shop at second hand stores, they got out of debt younger and didn't buy anything unless they paid cash. Jim Bob is a licensed realtor, and owns several commercial properties in his local area as an investor. To each their own... | |
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