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Expert
Posts: 2685
   
| grinandbareit - 2015-01-25 9:34 PM
streakysox - 2015-01-25 9:18 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM
I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind.
My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way.
Here is an example---when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me.
If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
Actually... The proper way to do leads are from the hip, not necessarily the nose. I think that most really good trainers know that... I think as barrel racers we focus WAY too much on their head and nose and our hands, and not near enough on everything from the shoulders back.
I was thinking this. |
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  Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | I think it is one of the best things you can do for a horse is to teach them basic dressage if you have the knowledge and ability or to send them to someone who can. It's an excellent foundation and helps out in so many different areas and disciplines. Plus, who doesn't like a very well rounded horse? |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | streakysox - 2015-01-25 10:18 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind. My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way. Here is an example---when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me. If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
actually in Dressage we keep them pretty square and balanced to pick up a lead. We use our hip and inside leg for support .. .. ouside back a Lil bit and slight pressure....and nose possibly ever so slightly tipped to inside. the only reason we would tip nose out in dressage in canter work is if horse needs help with picking up their shoulder AFTER hes on correct lead and needs adjusted and balanced... and in counter canter work. other then that we prefer straight and balanced. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1384
Location: Kansas | streakysox - 2015-01-25 9:18 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind. My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way. Here is an example--- when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me. If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
What you are saying is the opposite of how I have learned.
One of my horses is a hunter and I train with a H/J trainer. She has a dressage trainer come several times a year to give us lessons.
I have never trained or cliniced with anyone who tips the nose to the outside for getting a lead. (including WP and horsmanship) When starting a green horse the nose is tipped to the inside for canter departures, on a finished horse, the nose is not tipped. For side passing, my when learning my horse has an arc in his body towards the leg moving (dressage instructor also teaches this) the horse away. When finished the body is straight
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| First of all you missed the point of what I said---most barrel trainers want the horses green so that they do not have to retrain.
My trainer has control of the shoulders and hips for every move that she makes. I have ridden enough WP horses and have always tipped the horse to the outside. I ride with a guy that has won a ton in reining he actually has the horse side pass with head bent in the opposite direction to pick up leads. He only trains his own horses. If you watch Stacy Westfall, bridleless on Roxy you can see her shape her body to the outside with her legs to pick up leads. It is really obvious after the sliding stops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7v8Ck1crg Ya'll needed to watch that anyway.
Actually, Biblia you made a good point, that dressage horses are rather stiff. Around here we don't like our barrel horses stiff. Lindsey Sears horse--Martha---is a perfect example of having the nose tipped in. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1482
Location: on my horse | There's a large difference between straightness and stiffness IMO.
If we want to talk about a horse who really stands his shoulders (aka straightness), Nancy Hunter and Fuzz do this well. I highly doubt that he is stiff.
I grew up riding reiners, the basic principle that we try to teach our colts is how to bend the body and control from the hip. Drive from the hip to pick up leads/change leads, wait for the body to break at the loin and reach underneath with the hind end to ask for a stop, get up in the bridle and driving from behind to spin, etc. As a horse progresses from green to broke we begin to focus on straightening everything up, pick up the shoulders and square the body, lope squares instead of circles, and refining the front half of the horse's body control. The finished product should travel fairly straight but drive from behind.
I have a small understanding of dressage and did a little stint in a dressage barn just to expand my horse knowledge and open up my mind a little bit, I know that great impulsion and collection comes from behind and is brought forward, and I assume that the same is true for body control. Flexibility and softness are necessary to achieve even the most basic levels of true dressage, although the picture presented can appear to be fairly straight. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | streakysox - 2015-01-25 11:54 PM First of all you missed the point of what I said---most barrel trainers want the horses green so that they do not have to retrain. My trainer has control of the shoulders and hips for every move that she makes. I have ridden enough WP horses and have always tipped the horse to the outside. I ride with a guy that has won a ton in reining he actually has the horse side pass with head bent in the opposite direction to pick up leads. He only trains his own horses. If you watch Stacy Westfall, bridleless on Roxy you can see her shape her body to the outside with her legs to pick up leads. It is really obvious after the sliding stops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7v8Ck1crg Ya'll needed to watch that anyway. Actually, Biblia you made a good point, that dressage horses are rather stiff. Around here we don't like our barrel horses stiff. Lindsey Sears horse--Martha---is a perfect example of having the nose tipped in.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-25 11:26 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I think it is more important to find a trainer that ride similar to you.
If you have a horse trained you don't know how to ride, you are set farther back from when you started |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Nevertooold - 2015-01-25 8:44 PM
I have found way too many barrel horses are lacking a good foundation.
Well, I didn't say all barrel trainers do it.. But the good ones do.
The horse I own that was owned and trained by Dena Kirkpatrick- in November, I threw an english saddle on her for the first time in her life, entered her in an open show and won two hunter under saddle classes. They were walk trot canter classes, required her to be in frame and catch her leads. I had never asked her to catch a lead on the rail prior to, we always work circles.
I think a lot of people don't know what they are missing. I didn't know until I started going to Jan Powell 5-6 years ago. Now, I know what buttons they should have, how to teach them, and when to recognize a horse that has that foundation, or when it was skipped. |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| grinandbareit - 2015-01-25 10:34 PM streakysox - 2015-01-25 9:18 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind. My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way. Here is an example---when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me. If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
This! I had no idea how much I rode the front end of my horse until I went to a dressage lesson with my horse.
I now try to work with a dressage trainer along with my barrel trainer once a month.
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | magic gunsmoke - 2015-01-26 10:09 AM grinandbareit - 2015-01-25 10:34 PM streakysox - 2015-01-25 9:18 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind. My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way. Here is an example---when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me. If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
I now try to work with a dressage trainer along with my barrel trainer once a month.
we all do things differantly but that should be considered ..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 9:16 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| Dressage horses...stiff???? Bahahahahaahaha....I think that's the funniest thing I have heard all day....
You want a horse that trained? Do dressage...that basic foundation will allow you to put that horse in any position you want during a barrel run. But enough about the horse....riding dressage will also help you as a rider be more balanced and really ride with your seat and body........guaranteed to get your horse to drive from behind. |
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IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| Biblia you are right. The difference I feel in my horse is amazing. And the muscles I use to follow the sway make me super sore. I had never been taught to cue depending on
the movement of the hind end and where the hind legs are. It is hard, but the feel is really cool when you get it. My horse even gave me his back the first lesson. It may not look like much riding is going on to an observer, but when I work on my dressage I am doing more riding than I have ever done when I practice anything else. Now when I ride all I work on is the dressage. When I am with my barrel trainer is the only time I work barrels. I have not had a chance to ride like I usually do this month but went to a show I had one of the best runs I have had on my horse so far and that was coming off a 4 month lay off because of epm and a soft tissue injury. |
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IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| And my barrel trainer is a huge proponent of dressage. I just think we still get away from the classical dressage in the barrel world. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-26 9:14 AM
magic gunsmoke - 2015-01-26 10:09 AM grinandbareit - 2015-01-25 10:34 PM streakysox - 2015-01-25 9:18 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-25 6:14 PM I don't think I need to send mine to a dressage trainer to get the handle I want. The right barrel horse trainer will put the correct foundation on a horse. They learn the same basic principles but tweaked to my discipline. I would rather spend the money on a trainer who has my end goals in mind. My filly just went to my trainer about 10 days ago. She had 30 days on her last year. My trainer likes them pretty green so that she can spend her time building a solid foundation rather than trying to undo something someone else has done. Barrel racers use simple dressage skills but in a different way. Here is an example---when side passing barrel racers tip the horse's nose in the opposite direction that the horse is moving. Dressage horses tip their nose in the direction that they are moving. Dressage, WP, reining horses, and English are taught to pick up a lead using the outside foot and tipping the nose to the outside. Barrel horses should tip their nose in and you would kick with the inside foot. Too many years riding WP and my trainer has had to retrain me. If you want a barrel horse spend your money on a barrel horse trainer. If you want to take up dressage, send your horse to a dressage trainer.
I now try to work with a dressage trainer along with my barrel trainer once a month.
we all do things differantly but that should be considered ..
This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | There's good and bad training processes in most all disciplines. There's plenty of foundation dressage training that can benefit a barrel horse. Bottom line, IMO, is having a good trainer period. If you get a bad dressage trainer it's no different than getting a bad barrel trainer or a bad colt starter. I don't think it's a bad idea to get a basic dressage foundation on one, but I would make sure it's a decent trainer and not just some random person advertising they are a dressage trainer because there are good and bad in that industry as well. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2015-01-26 4:03 PM There's good and bad training processes in most all disciplines. There's plenty of foundation dressage training that can benefit a barrel horse. Bottom line, IMO, is having a good trainer period. If you get a bad dressage trainer it's no different than getting a bad barrel trainer or a bad colt starter. I don't think it's a bad idea to get a basic dressage foundation on one, but I would make sure it's a decent trainer and not just some random person advertising they are a dressage trainer because there are good and bad in that industry as well.
agree |
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| So now i feel like I have no idea how to ride my horse.. any good dressage trainers to give me a few lessons near Houston/College Station, TX area? Lol  |
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