|
|
  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
   
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Even with time off my gelding's stamina is good. He's turned out on a rolling pasture with two other horses and they play a LOT. So his muscle/ lungs are in good shape.
What I'm concerned about is whether or not his tendons are in just as good of shape. I have a tendency to think because a horse handles work well and doesn't tire they're legged up but I know that's not the case.
How do you decide a horse's tendons/ legs are hardened up enough? What do you do to work on that specifically? Routines?
Yesterday I hand walked him for 10 minutes on the black top road by our pasture to try to start working on this. I'm wondering if that's a good start - too hard, or too easy?
I know there's got to be some race track folks on here that could give some insight...
Edited by Fairweather 2015-04-17 1:24 PM
|
|
| |
|
 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I dont know how to tell if tendons are hard as you say but my vet says mimic barrel turns in deep ground to work muscles and tendons. He cautions to not over do it. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1611
| To leg up a barrel horse you must make a run or breeze them out if your want their actual running legs under them and have them ready.
Pony at a trot and a lope (both leads). Start small and work up.
When it comes to hardening you really don't need to worry much about that with your horse he's a 6yr old right? Now you can get those tendons back in shape by just working him.
Hardening is really only a worry when your preparing yearlings for the track to prevent bucked shins later on. I would never be purposely working on blacktop with a finished horse. Like someone said you can work them in deep ground but you can easily pull things in deep sand as well. Just slow work and tuning them will be sufficient to have their tendons flexible and ready.
Another thing ppl neglect to do with finished horses is to actually ride them and make them work correctly. Lope a correct right circle and left circle, feel them and be able to tell when their lope changes and they are sore. Its important to do this on a regular basis so you can feel if they are sore.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-17 1:35 PM
|
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If the horse experienced a soft tissue injury, such as tendon damage, my vet always said three months of conditioning. Walking, trot, and loping he said two miles is the perfect distance on conditioning a horse.
Also with horses with tendon injuries, I will not work them in worked up ground, I will work the, on trails, fields, pastures, etc, not worked up ground.
I also will not work horses on a black top, too much stress on joints, as they are the tissue that is absorbing the shock and vibration. |
|
| |
|
Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Most weeks he's ridden 3x at least, often 4 times if we have good weather. When he's been worked for a while, I breeze at least once a week on both leads. Most of the time I long trot trot up and down the hill as a warm up for 5-10 min, then lope different size circles in the field for 15-20+min. The cool down is a lap around the field at a walk. Short days I lunge in the pen and work on flex, etc.
I've had a couple of times that I've conditioned like that and waited until about the 3rd week to breeze and he's been off and sore afterwards. A little bit of time off and he's back to normal. He also doesn't do well on hard ground.
I've ran across a couple of studies that showed moderate work on harder type ground (gravel road/ packed ground, walk-trot) improved bone density and tendons. A lot of European dressage trainers say the same thing. I've heard it from old timers here too. I have to say the gaited horses here that get trail ridden on the roads a good bit are some of the toughest horses I've ever seen, as well as some of the Amish cart horses. So that's what got me to thinking about light work on the road. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Fairweather - 2015-04-17 6:02 PM
Most weeks he's ridden 3x at least, often 4 times if we have good weather. When he's been worked for a while, I breeze at least once a week on both leads. Most of the time I long trot trot up and down the hill as a warm up for 5-10 min, then lope different size circles in the field for 15-20+min. The cool down is a lap around the field at a walk. Short days I lunge in the pen and work on flex, etc.
I've had a couple of times that I've conditioned like that and waited until about the 3rd week to breeze and he's been off and sore afterwards. A little bit of time off and he's back to normal. He also doesn't do well on hard ground.
I've ran across a couple of studies that showed moderate work on harder type ground (gravel road/ packed ground, walk-trot) improved bone density and tendons. A lot of European dressage trainers say the same thing. I've heard it from old timers here too. I have to say the gaited horses here that get trail ridden on the roads a good bit are some of the toughest horses I've ever seen, as well as some of the Amish cart horses. So that's what got me to thinking about light work on the road.
There have also been studies completed on thoroughbreds showing stronger bone density with horses exercised in all three gaits, where horses are more likely to break a leg if only conditioned by jogging or solely loping.
Unless you want to wreck the joints and work the horse on the pavement at all three gaits, he will still have less bone density then a horse who was worked all three gaits on a softer surface. |
|
| |
|
 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| I have been dabbling with endurance and the more I talk to people that are well versed stressed it takes 1 year to condition ligaments. They stress actually working your horse on very hard serfaced like dirt roads but at a walk for a few months then trot and canter in the same fashion this is for ligent training. I will say it's probably not the best on joints but either are tight circles. I have asked so many endurance people what injuries do you see in the sport. I always get a puzzled look and the response I get is along the lines of we don't really have any.... Then normally I get a story about how someone got a suspensory injury pushing to hard. So I have been taking some of there conditioning practices for ligaments to help my barrel horse. They have to race in crazy conditions normally at a 7mp clip. Imagine 50 miles at a desent trot on crazy ground. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1611
| Cart horses and endurance horses are in NO way comparable to making 3 tight turns at high speed. Those horses don't use themselves the same way. You don't want hardening you want flexibility! I've seen lameness experts from TX to KY and all say bone density is only important to yearlings or two year old race horses...after this age your doing more harm than good.
When I say breeze I mean an all out run for their life and you shouldn't do it both leads in the same day, they shouldn't have that much left in the tank. Check out Jackie jatzlau fb, good posts on breezing there. |
|
| |
|
The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| astreakinchic - 2015-04-18 8:25 AM
Cart horses and endurance horses are in NO way comparable to making 3 tight turns at high speed. Those horses don't use themselves the same way. You don't want hardening you want flexibility! I've seen lameness experts from TX to KY and all say bone density is only important to yearlings or two year old race horses...after this age your doing more harm than good.
When I say breeze I mean an all out run for their life and you shouldn't do it both leads in the same day, they shouldn't have that much left in the tank. Check out Jackie jatzlau fb, good posts on breezing there.
I will agree with you on cart horses and they do use there body's completely different but conditioning aspect endurance horses must have flexibility they climb rock faces that I wold only lead my horses up and cross deep sandy river areas that stretch miles you aren't going to get far on no flexibility. I think it's important I have a well rounded horse mentally and physically. Physically if you cut out a complete aspect of conditioning how well do you think that horse going to the rodeo grounds that gets worked once a year is going to handle it? Would you be at more risk walk/trotting 2 miles on a dirty road twice a week or keeping them in a manicured arena then expect them to handle hard ground well going full tilt.
Edited by Thistle2011 2015-04-18 8:59 AM
|
|
| |
|
Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Thistle2011 - 2015-04-18 8:56 AM
astreakinchic - 2015-04-18 8:25 AM
Cart horses and endurance horses are in NO way comparable to making 3 tight turns at high speed. Those horses don't use themselves the same way. You don't want hardening you want flexibility! I've seen lameness experts from TX to KY and all say bone density is only important to yearlings or two year old race horses...after this age your doing more harm than good.
When I say breeze I mean an all out run for their life and you shouldn't do it both leads in the same day, they shouldn't have that much left in the tank. Check out Jackie jatzlau fb, good posts on breezing there.
I will agree with you on cart horses and they do use there body's completely different but conditioning aspect endurance horses must have flexibility they climb rock faces that I wold only lead my horses up and cross deep sandy river areas that stretch miles you aren't going to get far on no flexibility. I think it's important I have a well rounded horse mentally and physically. Physically if you cut out a complete aspect of conditioning how well do you think that horse going to the rodeo grounds that gets worked once a year is going to handle it? Would you be at more risk walk/trotting 2 miles on a dirty road twice a week or keeping them in a manicured arena then expect them to handle hard ground well going full tilt.
Thanks for all the input - that's the lines that I'm thinking along. It makes sense to me. Not an all or nothing approach, but trying to find a way to incorporate the hardening training into the normal training at a reasonable amount and pace. |
|
| |
|
Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | On a side note, we've had a lot of discussion and speculation why it seems horses don't hold up as well and aren't as tough as they used to be, and how we've seen more fatal leg injuries in barrel horses than what you used to hear about. I think bone density plays a part in that, just like it does fractures in people. The stronger the bone the less likely for injury. Maybe it could be tied to the conditioning practices changing.
Edited by Fairweather 2015-04-18 9:37 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1611
| We pony on hard ground. TN soil is somewhat rocky in our area. We don't work the arena up to be well mancuired bc we want them to be able to stand on trashy ground. We futurity mostly. But you can't compare all out runs with hard stops and turns to endurance, by the time a horse is done with their derby year they already have cartilage break down IF they are a bad cat. You want to minimize concussion by this point in a horses career. If you are working and tuning one CORRECTLY they will be ready regardless. We use ponying to build wind and stamina but you can also say we do it to build density bc it's on hard wore down and packed dirt roads. Id stay off the asphalt though bc for me horses are an investment and worth more than most of our tractors and equipment. |
|
| |
|
 A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | I work mine with naked legs unless we are doing some real hard pattern work. That's how I know their legs are getting stretched and worked like they should be.
That's really all I have. Lol. |
|
| |
|
 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | Fairweather - 2015-04-18 9:34 AM On a side note, we've had a lot of discussion and speculation why it seems horses don't hold up as well and aren't as tough as they used to be, and how we've seen more fatal leg injuries in barrel horses than what you used to hear about. I think bone density plays a part in that, just like it does fractures in people. The stronger the bone the less likely for injury. Maybe it could be tied to the conditioning practices changing.
You are hearing about more fatal leg injuries because of social media and the fact that there are a lot more horses running now than years ago.
I also think that years ago we didn't have the sports medicine (joint injections, PRP, stem cell, etc) that we have now. If a horse got sore enough to quit working, he got turned out and the rider moved on to another horse. Now we are breeding mares and stallions that would never been able to keep running without modern sports medicine and in some cases, powerful drugs like dermorphin. I think for the most part, we are breeding more fragile animals now and they just won't hold up as well. |
|
| |
|
I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I can't believe as hard as our sport is on horses' legs, that some of you make so light about tendon and ligament conditioning. I think it is even more important for a barrel horse's tendons & ligaments to be stronger than an endurance horse's, just because of simple mechanics. Cardio and muscle respond much faster to conditioning than tendons and ligaments. I am just coming back into the sport and will be aiming to compete the beginning of next year, mostly because my horse is totally out of shape and I want him in as good condition as he can be. I have read several books on conditioning and it is possible to work your horse for your event and work on his conditioning. It does take more time, but it also will cut down on injuries and vet expenses. I think the endurance people have it right as far as conditioning a horse goes. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1611
| Barnmom - 2015-04-18 12:07 PM
Fairweather - 2015-04-18 9:34 AM On a side note, we've had a lot of discussion and speculation why it seems horses don't hold up as well and aren't as tough as they used to be, and how we've seen more fatal leg injuries in barrel horses than what you used to hear about. I think bone density plays a part in that, just like it does fractures in people. The stronger the bone the less likely for injury. Maybe it could be tied to the conditioning practices changing.
You are hearing about more fatal leg injuries because of social media and the fact that there are a lot more horses running now than years ago.
I also think that years ago we didn't have the sports medicine (joint injections, PRP, stem cell, etc) that we have now. If a horse got sore enough to quit working, he got turned out and the rider moved on to another horse. Now we are breeding mares and stallions that would never been able to keep running without modern sports medicine and in some cases, powerful drugs like dermorphin. I think for the most part, we are breeding more fragile animals now and they just won't hold up as well.
More and more ppl are getting educated about when a horse is sore or hurt. It used to be ppl only knew their horse was sore if he was non weight bearing on a leg. We are seeing more tendon and ligament injuries bc your average Betty barrel racer has finally educated themselves on why their horses aren't cutting the clock like they used to do. Another thing that happens when ppl get open horses is they lay them out or pull their head away to get by a barrel. When you lay out or pull their end away your asking for injury, especially on well manicured soft ground. People tend to run the tune out of their horse and get them on their front end or they don't kno their horse is hurt and he gets down on his front end to avoid pain. Most ppl can't even tell their horses do these things. All of the things I mentioned will cause tendon and ligament injuries.
Watch Jolene, Cody, and Troy you will never see them lay one out. They keep their hips and that inside leg up and under them. Keep you horse in order and unless you have a fall you won't have a tendon or ligament injury, unless you have bad shoe jobs or horrible confirmation. I've had 3 young horses in the past two years with ligament injuries....two we bought knowing and one had a fall.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-18 4:56 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 139
Location: Abbotsford B.C. Canada | One thing I do not see in this discussion is that when we train young race horses ( or I suspect it would apply to a barrel horse who is being fitted up after maybe down time), the fact is that the bone will start to change or remodel as you start work.
However as per bucked shins in race horses the new thinking is let the bone start to change , It actually starts to break down and try to move more minerals to the higher stress areas . T However, this means the horse's bones are actually weaker about 4-6 weeks after training starts and that is when the horse bucks its shins. This is because the bone has broken down but not yet had time to reform. Thye do not buck their shins in the first week or two of training. So what you may wish to do is start a gradually increasing program then at one month back down for a few weeks say by twenty five percent so the bone can break down and then reform in the regions where the new stresses are and then slowly move back up on the training. If you just train steadily ramping up the stress how can the horse 's bone, ligaments and maybe tendons adjust?
I wonder if it is the same for tendons and ligaments.
We do know the baby horse must have some chance to jet about even just for two hundred yards for maximum bone strength. TIt does not have to be prolonged. The horse's bones must "see" the maximum stress they will be under to get the systems stimulated to maximize bone density. I think the secret is to just do a maximu breeze a little, but do it at maximum speed, otherwise you damage or break down the bone and ligaments and tendons.
Also look at how hot those tendons get and ice after every run .
Just my two cents .
Coastal Rider.
|
|
| |
|
 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | mileage mileage mileage. Long slow distance to strengthen tendons. Muscles and lungs are much easier to condition. |
|
| |
Folks on-line