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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
   
| mreklaw - 2015-09-17 9:39 AM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-17 9:27 AM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 11:36 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-16 10:08 PM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 9:48 PM
mreklaw - 2015-09-16 6:08 PM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 4:21 PM
What has your mare produced? Does she have a performance record? Did her dam or sisters produce anything?
I ask because being by a broodmare sire isn't enough for me to justify breeding a mare. It especially doesn't justify the expense you'd be going to.
I like DTF and I bred a mare to him with no reservations.
While I agree with most everything you said, I do believe DTF is the one exception to the rule. If she is marketing to the futurity crowd she will still have a very marketable baby. Won't make as much if the mare isn't proven but her mare has nice papers.
I expect more out of my mares than having a known sire.
A DTF out of even unknown mares will still go for more than most other foals by other sires (excluding the other BIG ones like FG, FWF, etc ). Heck the only two weanlings on BHW by DTF aren't out of proven mares (or at least that I could find when I looked them up ), and they are still $25k and $30k. Just a thought to ponder.
The original poster asked for opinions. I in turn asked for additional information since I could not give them an educated opinion with the limited information provided. Based only on what was given, I think it would be a poor decision for several reasons.
I'm well aware that the barrel industry as a whole does not understand or respect the value of female family. That said, I play the odds and what the very best possible chance at breeding a successful horse. I look for strong female families who have shown they produce nice, fast, sound horses.
Breeding is gamble enough, put the odds as much in your favor as you can.
A sire alone does not make a mare with reproducing no matter who you breed her to.
I'm not saying your wrong or anything, simply that people will still pay for a DTF regardless of mare family. YES, she could get more out of a proven mare, that's why there are $80k DTFs out there. But most other sires couldn't dream of getting even 20k off of a weanling. It just isn't done with most other stallions.
(Personally, not a DTF fan. Every one I've met was a basket case. That was just MY observation of pricing and such. I put more value on FWF than DTF, honestly. )
This was the point I was trying to make also. You cant argue with the success DTF's have had in the barrel pen. With that said they will bring more than most as futurity prospects and there is a reason for that. They win!!! So if you have a decent mare why not breed to him if you are going to market to the futurity crowd. No they will not bring as much as those out of proven mares but they will bring more than any other barrel sires out of so so mares.
Having a recognizable sire does not make a decent mare.
Having a family helps. | |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | kuhlmann - 2015-09-17 9:41 AM
mreklaw - 2015-09-17 9:39 AM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-17 9:27 AM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 11:36 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-16 10:08 PM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 9:48 PM
mreklaw - 2015-09-16 6:08 PM
kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 4:21 PM
What has your mare produced? Does she have a performance record? Did her dam or sisters produce anything?
I ask because being by a broodmare sire isn't enough for me to justify breeding a mare. It especially doesn't justify the expense you'd be going to.
I like DTF and I bred a mare to him with no reservations.
While I agree with most everything you said, I do believe DTF is the one exception to the rule. If she is marketing to the futurity crowd she will still have a very marketable baby. Won't make as much if the mare isn't proven but her mare has nice papers.
I expect more out of my mares than having a known sire.
A DTF out of even unknown mares will still go for more than most other foals by other sires (excluding the other BIG ones like FG, FWF, etc ). Heck the only two weanlings on BHW by DTF aren't out of proven mares (or at least that I could find when I looked them up ), and they are still $25k and $30k. Just a thought to ponder.
The original poster asked for opinions. I in turn asked for additional information since I could not give them an educated opinion with the limited information provided. Based only on what was given, I think it would be a poor decision for several reasons.
I'm well aware that the barrel industry as a whole does not understand or respect the value of female family. That said, I play the odds and what the very best possible chance at breeding a successful horse. I look for strong female families who have shown they produce nice, fast, sound horses.
Breeding is gamble enough, put the odds as much in your favor as you can.
A sire alone does not make a mare with reproducing no matter who you breed her to.
I'm not saying your wrong or anything, simply that people will still pay for a DTF regardless of mare family. YES, she could get more out of a proven mare, that's why there are $80k DTFs out there. But most other sires couldn't dream of getting even 20k off of a weanling. It just isn't done with most other stallions.
(Personally, not a DTF fan. Every one I've met was a basket case. That was just MY observation of pricing and such. I put more value on FWF than DTF, honestly. )
This was the point I was trying to make also. You cant argue with the success DTF's have had in the barrel pen. With that said they will bring more than most as futurity prospects and there is a reason for that. They win!!! So if you have a decent mare why not breed to him if you are going to market to the futurity crowd. No they will not bring as much as those out of proven mares but they will bring more than any other barrel sires out of so so mares.
Having a family helps.
The OP asked if it would be a good cross and said that she was going to sell possibly as a yearling. My comments were that the colt would be marketable due to DTF's popularity. | |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| I maintain that a sire alone does not warrant the investment. I asked for more information before I gave an opinion. I personally can't make an educated decision with the information that was originally provided. If you're willing to tell someone to invest that amount of money based on the information that was initially provided, more power to you.
Edited by kuhlmann 2015-09-17 9:48 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 4625
Location: Desert Land | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-17 7:27 AM kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 11:36 PM FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-16 10:08 PM kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 9:48 PM mreklaw - 2015-09-16 6:08 PM kuhlmann - 2015-09-16 4:21 PM What has your mare produced? Does she have a performance record? Did her dam or sisters produce anything?
I ask because being by a broodmare sire isn't enough for me to justify breeding a mare. It especially doesn't justify the expense you'd be going to.
I like DTF and I bred a mare to him with no reservations. While I agree with most everything you said, I do believe DTF is the one exception to the rule. If she is marketing to the futurity crowd she will still have a very marketable baby. Won't make as much if the mare isn't proven but her mare has nice papers.
I expect more out of my mares than having a known sire. A DTF out of even unknown mares will still go for more than most other foals by other sires (excluding the other BIG ones like FG, FWF, etc ). Heck the only two weanlings on BHW by DTF aren't out of proven mares (or at least that I could find when I looked them up ), and they are still $25k and $30k. Just a thought to ponder.
The original poster asked for opinions. I in turn asked for additional information since I could not give them an educated opinion with the limited information provided. Based only on what was given, I think it would be a poor decision for several reasons.
I'm well aware that the barrel industry as a whole does not understand or respect the value of female family. That said, I play the odds and what the very best possible chance at breeding a successful horse. I look for strong female families who have shown they produce nice, fast, sound horses.
Breeding is gamble enough, put the odds as much in your favor as you can.
A sire alone does not make a mare with reproducing no matter who you breed her to. I'm not saying your wrong or anything, simply that people will still pay for a DTF regardless of mare family. YES, she could get more out of a proven mare, that's why there are $80k DTFs out there. But most other sires couldn't dream of getting even 20k off of a weanling. It just isn't done with most other stallions. (Personally, not a DTF fan. Every one I've met was a basket case. That was just MY observation of pricing and such. I put more value on FWF than DTF, honestly.)
Well that's a no brainer...it Costs $22k+ for FWF's stud fee plus ICSI procedure to get the mare in foal. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | OT... but FWF has a $22k stud fee??? | |
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Expert
Posts: 4625
Location: Desert Land | Longneck - 2015-09-17 8:17 AM OT... but FWF has a $22k stud fee???
No, it's $12k + about $10k for the ISCI procedure. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | TheOldGrayMare - 2015-09-17 10:24 AM Longneck - 2015-09-17 8:17 AM OT... but FWF has a $22k stud fee??? No, it's $12k + about $10k for the ISCI procedure.
Thanks! I've always been curious as to what it is! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 155
| No more arguing :-) Everyone has their own opinions and lets respect that. I am considering everything everyone is saying!! Let get back to original topic. lol | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | just put pen to paper..
so his stud fee is 7500
vet bills to get that mare in foal i estimate will be at least 1000 because you are dealing with frozen semen and will most likely be deep horn inseminating ( at least i would hope your vet would be if they don't require it, I haven't looked).
15 and 25 day ultrasounds ill estimate to be about 30 each.. then if you want another one for good measure thats another 30 so about $90 total
mare feed and farrier- say you trim her for $40 every 6 weeks, say she eats a bag of safe choice a week.. $64 a month on feed (64 X 11ish months= 704).. I'm estimating she will carry 340 days so thats 48.5 weeks... about 8 trims (8 X 40= $320) and
hay??? pasture??
sooo adding up: 7500+1000+90+704 +320
Rough estimate of about 9600 to get her in foal and cared for with an uneventful pregnancy until term.
I'm sure I missed some expenses too. So if it takes about 9600-10,000 to get the foal on the ground, then ask yourself what amount you would be satisfied with profit wise and see if that fits for you. | |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| casualdust07 - 2015-09-17 11:42 AM just put pen to paper.. so his stud fee is 7500 vet bills to get that mare in foal i estimate will be at least 1000 because you are dealing with frozen semen and will most likely be deep horn inseminating ( at least i would hope your vet would be if they don't require it, I haven't looked). 15 and 25 day ultrasounds ill estimate to be about 30 each.. then if you want another one for good measure thats another 30 so about $90 total mare feed and farrier- say you trim her for $40 every 6 weeks, say she eats a bag of safe choice a week.. $64 a month on feed (64 X 11ish months= 704).. I'm estimating she will carry 340 days so thats 48.5 weeks... about 8 trims (8 X 40= $320) and hay??? pasture?? sooo adding up: 7500+1000+90+704 +320 Rough estimate of about 9600 to get her in foal and cared for with an uneventful pregnancy until term. I'm sure I missed some expenses too. So if it takes about 9600-10,000 to get the foal on the ground, then ask yourself what amount you would be satisfied with profit wise and see if that fits for you.
I sure do wish I lived somewhere with those size of breeding/vet bills! LOL!
To ultrasound a mare here is:
$55 trip charge
$45 tranquilizer
$125 ultrasound
Total $225 - each ultrasound
$275 AI fee
or
$550(ish)/day for frozen AI clinic stay, 3 day minimum (no mobile vet in my area will touch frozen). But, at the clinic they will ultrasound twice a day, then every 4 hours until the optimal time of insemination with frozen, which is much less of a window than fresh shipped semen. So that fee is probably the most economical if I ever feel the need to breed with frozen semen, DTF or otherwise.
And my rough estimate for keeping a broodie runs about $120 per month since you do feed more at the end and she will require some shots.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | oh wow no I get ours ultrasounded for like $25-30 a piece and they only sedate if they absolutely have to. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | They have just walked up to mine in the pasture no stocks, caught her and palpated in a couple emergencies. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | casualdust07 - 2015-09-17 11:42 AM
just put pen to paper..
so his stud fee is 7500
vet bills to get that mare in foal i estimate will be at least 1000 because you are dealing with frozen semen and will most likely be deep horn inseminating ( at least i would hope your vet would be if they don't require it, I haven't looked).
15 and 25 day ultrasounds ill estimate to be about 30 each.. then if you want another one for good measure thats another 30 so about $90 total
mare feed and farrier- say you trim her for $40 every 6 weeks, say she eats a bag of safe choice a week.. $64 a month on feed (64 X 11ish months= 704).. I'm estimating she will carry 340 days so thats 48.5 weeks... about 8 trims (8 X 40= $320) and
hay??? pasture??
sooo adding up: 7500+1000+90+704 +320
Rough estimate of about 9600 to get her in foal and cared for with an uneventful pregnancy until term.
I'm sure I missed some expenses too. So if it takes about 9600-10,000 to get the foal on the ground, then ask yourself what amount you would be satisfied with profit wise and see if that fits for you.
This is a great point, would be the first thing I considered!!! Thus why they have to sell for so much, to try to make their money back plus more. I personally would never, that's a large amount for a "gamble" if I were doing it for me personally and I had the money to spend on myself then it would be different!
Good luck with your decision! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | The only DTF mare I ever rode was this one
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stinsons+crystal
She was super laid back and man could she move, very light and easy but very lazy which surprised me with the OTMR cross and TB. I have one closely related on the bottom that's a big spirited free runner so I don't know if all the DTFs are laid back? I was just running her her 3/4 year old year in some local futurities, I passed up on buying her for 6k and she sold for 12 I believe! Wish I would have kept her. | |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| With my opinion and about $2.00, you can buy a coke...
First of all, if you like your mare and she is correct breeding her or what you breed her to is your decision. My dad bought a little no name mare when I was in first grade. He paid $1000 for her while her fancier bred 1/2 sibling sold for $3500. We later bought the more expensive one for almost nothing even though she had a better pedigree. Our mare only had an 80 S.I., but her first colt to go to the track back in the early eighties won over $100,000 and had a 107 S.I.. She was a consistent producer of winners. Most were AAAT, a few were superior race horses and I managed to get a few to the arena where they won. She lived to be 30 and had 18 foals, the last of which was an accident by Bender who I "gave" to my son which kept hubby from making me sell her. She is in foal to Lions Share of Fame.
That brings me to my second point. If you like the DTF breeding, LSOF is proven, his family is proven and his connections are super to work with. You might try that because there is a market for his foals. For me, there are too many things that can go wrong with a pregnancy to risk the money on DTF. | |
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| I've had 2 dtfs so far and I did not like either one. One was by dtf the other was a grand daughter (paternal) . Both acted exactly the same. Hot, goofy, essentially attempted to hurt themselves every chance they got. Could work good on the barrels especially in practice runs, but lost it a bit while performing. ( I have a ton of horses to run all bred different, And all mine work great and like their jobs, these didn't) Both super ratey, one was big enough to handle the deep ground, the other was tiny. Both had the same ankles (chips and more chips) . So no I'm not a fan of dtf. And no I wouldn't personally breed anything I own to dtf unless the mare has excellent bone and excellent brain and work ethic. Yes there are a ton of DTFs that have done well. But look at how many have made the nfr? I believe he's breeding a ton of mares every year way more that most studs and every mare owner believes that their mare may be the magic cross. And out of how many mares he's breeding do the colts go on to do something awesome? Without injury? Yes his babies are talented no they don't tend to last. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| luckygirl04 - 2015-09-19 3:56 AM
I've had 2 dtfs so far and I did not like either one. One was by dtf the other was a grand daughter (paternal) . Both acted exactly the same. Hot, goofy, essentially attempted to hurt themselves every chance they got. Could work good on the barrels especially in practice runs, but lost it a bit while performing. ( I have a ton of horses to run all bred different, And all mine work great and like their jobs, these didn't) Both super ratey, one was big enough to handle the deep ground, the other was tiny. Both had the same ankles (chips and more chips) . So no I'm not a fan of dtf. And no I wouldn't personally breed anything I own to dtf unless the mare has excellent bone and excellent brain and work ethic. Yes there are a ton of DTFs that have done well. But look at how many have made the nfr? I believe he's breeding a ton of mares every year way more that most studs and every mare owner believes that their mare may be the magic cross. And out of how many mares he's breeding do the colts go on to do something awesome? Without injury? Yes his babies are talented no they don't tend to last.
Same here, only ones I've messed with were broodmares, but they were idiots. I rarely have needed to put a chain under the lip of any broodmare that has came through, but you don't even open the stall door with these til you get that chain on them. They will drag you all over the place, spook at everything, and are just hot headed, and apparently, that's normal behavior for those types. | |
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  Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | kmcsunshine - 2015-09-18 6:42 PM With my opinion and about $2.00, you can buy a coke...
First of all, if you like your mare and she is correct breeding her or what you breed her to is your decision. My dad bought a little no name mare when I was in first grade. He paid $1000 for her while her fancier bred 1/2 sibling sold for $3500. We later bought the more expensive one for almost nothing even though she had a better pedigree. Our mare only had an 80 S.I., but her first colt to go to the track back in the early eighties won over $100,000 and had a 107 S.I.. She was a consistent producer of winners. Most were AAAT, a few were superior race horses and I managed to get a few to the arena where they won. She lived to be 30 and had 18 foals, the last of which was an accident by Bender who I "gave" to my son which kept hubby from making me sell her. She is in foal to Lions Share of Fame.
That brings me to my second point. If you like the DTF breeding, LSOF is proven, his family is proven and his connections are super to work with. You might try that because there is a market for his foals. For me, there are too many things that can go wrong with a pregnancy to risk the money on DTF.
I haven't read all the posts so.....if you are breeding her to keep the baby by all means I would breed to DTF. Tia makes some really good points. No one knows what they will get when they breed their mare. I love the DTF horses. | |
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