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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
    
Location: TEXAS | I've come across some articles when researching draw reins and found some that claim they will cause kissing spine! |
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| I would guess the root of that is a horse not carrying his body correctly, yet asked to tuck his nose might do something odd.
But actually causing it?? I'm not sure I'd jump on that band wagon, seeing as how MANY people have used them for MANY years and a whole lot of horses don't have KS. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | My guess would be that using draw reins could hasten problems if the underlying physical issue/weakness was already present. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | In a sense I can see how they can. However draw reins alone are not the cause. The true cause would be forcing a horses front end to appear collected while the horse is actually hollow in out its back and not driving from the hind end. That plus a rider on a constant basis can create a kissing spine issue. I'm a firm believer in WAY more horses having kissing spine then we are aware of. Some horses never get evaluated for it and are dubbed with attitude problems when it's all probably pain related somewhere. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: alabama | My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
Edited by smcmil 2017-01-09 10:01 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | smcmil - 2017-01-09 9:00 PM
My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
Unless the hind end is engaged and the horse is using its body properly then it won't help. It's not just about the head tuck. It's about proper collection and stretching those back muscles to strengthen the back. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| smcmil - 2017-01-09 10:00 PM
My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
A horse can be fairly level through the neck and tuck their head but still be hollowed through the back and strung out, not using their hind end. Look at most any lower level hunter under saddle or western classes and you will see a lot of this.
When the horse engages the hind end and comes up under themselves a couple things happen. One the shoulders lift to get out of the way of the hind end, if you think of where the neck ties into the shoulder as a hinge, when the shoulders lift the neck drops - there's your long and low frame.
Secondly, there's a serious of ligaments that run from the poll to the croup. Engaging the hind end, raising the shoulders and dropping the neck tighten and strengthen these, building the top line of the horse in addition to muscle. The dressage base practice of rokur takes this to the extreme of hyperflexion of the head and neck and creates a whole nuther basket of problems.
Top line comes from riding the hindend. On a lunge there are a couple training rigs that I like to use in moderation to help get a horse working under himself if one is struggling. Sometimes they figure it out easier that way. |
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Boot Detective
Posts: 1900
| No, draw reins are not the cause. I have seen several kissing spines that I KNOW were not ridden in draw reins. If anything riding in draw reins should help stretch the back and help alleviate the problem. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: alabama | OhMax - 2017-01-09 9:26 PM
smcmil - 2017-01-09 10:00 PM
My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
A horse can be fairly level through the neck and tuck their head but still be hollowed through the back and strung out, not using their hind end. Look at most any lower level hunter under saddle or western classes and you will see a lot of this.
When the horse engages the hind end and comes up under themselves a couple things happen. One the shoulders lift to get out of the way of the hind end, if you think of where the neck ties into the shoulder as a hinge, when the shoulders lift the neck drops - there's your long and low frame.
Secondly, there's a serious of ligaments that run from the poll to the croup. Engaging the hind end, raising the shoulders and dropping the neck tighten and strengthen these, building the top line of the horse in addition to muscle. The dressage base practice of rokur takes this to the extreme of hyperflexion of the head and neck and creates a whole nuther basket of problems.
Top line comes from riding the hindend. On a lunge there are a couple training rigs that I like to use in moderation to help get a horse working under himself if one is struggling. Sometimes they figure it out easier that way.
So do u think with me lunging her with head tucked would keep hind end engaged, so she could build up top line |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| smcmil - 2017-01-10 6:48 AM
OhMax - 2017-01-09 9:26 PM
smcmil - 2017-01-09 10:00 PM
My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
A horse can be fairly level through the neck and tuck their head but still be hollowed through the back and strung out, not using their hind end. Look at most any lower level hunter under saddle or western classes and you will see a lot of this.
When the horse engages the hind end and comes up under themselves a couple things happen. One the shoulders lift to get out of the way of the hind end, if you think of where the neck ties into the shoulder as a hinge, when the shoulders lift the neck drops - there's your long and low frame.
Secondly, there's a serious of ligaments that run from the poll to the croup. Engaging the hind end, raising the shoulders and dropping the neck tighten and strengthen these, building the top line of the horse in addition to muscle. The dressage base practice of rokur takes this to the extreme of hyperflexion of the head and neck and creates a whole nuther basket of problems.
Top line comes from riding the hindend. On a lunge there are a couple training rigs that I like to use in moderation to help get a horse working under himself if one is struggling. Sometimes they figure it out easier that way.
So do u think with me lunging her with head tucked would keep hind end engaged, so she could build up top line
Depends on the horse, some are naturally engaged movers.
Typically though I would say no. If you're only using something to tuck her head the "easy" way for her to do it is the just tuck her head and truck along with a hollowed back.
Dover Saddlery carried a "Balance Complete Training System" which is what I've used in the past. It's extremely helpful and I would recommend to have someone with experience using them help you out though until you're comfortable and know what you're looking for.
Just my opinion and how I would approach it if lunging is recommended over riding. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: alabama | OhMax - 2017-01-10 6:49 AM
smcmil - 2017-01-10 6:48 AM
OhMax - 2017-01-09 9:26 PM
smcmil - 2017-01-09 10:00 PM
My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused??
A horse can be fairly level through the neck and tuck their head but still be hollowed through the back and strung out, not using their hind end. Look at most any lower level hunter under saddle or western classes and you will see a lot of this.
When the horse engages the hind end and comes up under themselves a couple things happen. One the shoulders lift to get out of the way of the hind end, if you think of where the neck ties into the shoulder as a hinge, when the shoulders lift the neck drops - there's your long and low frame.
Secondly, there's a serious of ligaments that run from the poll to the croup. Engaging the hind end, raising the shoulders and dropping the neck tighten and strengthen these, building the top line of the horse in addition to muscle. The dressage base practice of rokur takes this to the extreme of hyperflexion of the head and neck and creates a whole nuther basket of problems.
Top line comes from riding the hindend. On a lunge there are a couple training rigs that I like to use in moderation to help get a horse working under himself if one is struggling. Sometimes they figure it out easier that way.
So do u think with me lunging her with head tucked would keep hind end engaged, so she could build up top line
Depends on the horse, some are naturally engaged movers.
Typically though I would say no. If you're only using something to tuck her head the "easy" way for her to do it is the just tuck her head and truck along with a hollowed back.
Dover Saddlery carried a "Balance Complete Training System" which is what I've used in the past. It's extremely helpful and I would recommend to have someone with experience using them help you out though until you're comfortable and know what you're looking for.
Just my opinion and how I would approach it if lunging is recommended over riding.
Thanks! I sent a video to my vet of her being lunged and he said she was in the correct position, so I hope I'm ok!!. I was supposed to do that for 30 days after she'd been on stall rest for 30... I'll look into the training system ur talking abt too |
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 Expert
Posts: 1258
Location: MN | My horse had this surgery in March for Kissing Spine. Draw reins do not cause kissing spine. Short backs, poor saddles, poor riding, pain somewhere causing them to not use their hind end, and they can be born with it, causes kissing spine. Yes, even though it's been a year, I still use a surcingle and draw reins to tuck their head and build their topline. It takes A LONG time for these horses to UNREMEMBER what they spent years doing. You know they are collected when their hind foot falls in the same spot as their front foot. (for the most part) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: alabama | snoopy - 2017-01-10 10:40 AM
My horse had this surgery in March for Kissing Spine. Draw reins do not cause kissing spine. Short backs, poor saddles, poor riding, pain somewhere causing them to not use their hind end, and they can be born with it, causes kissing spine. Yes, even though it's been a year, I still use a surcingle and draw reins to tuck their head and build their topline. It takes A LONG time for these horses to UNREMEMBER what they spent years doing. You know they are collected when their hind foot falls in the same spot as their front foot. (for the most part)
Thank u!! I hadn't had this mare but for a month when I found out she had it:( so I have NO idea what saddle is best for her... if u saw my other post I'm abt ready to pull my hair out!!! Definitely no treeless right? |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Nope, not if used correctly. But most often people get a horse really behind the bit. My gelding tends to want to do that. I switch up exercises with him and use long lines, different martingales, side reins and draw reins. He naturally has a low headset but he can get lazy in the back end. I work with a dressage trainer to keep my exercises in check. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | OhMax - 2017-01-09 10:26 PM smcmil - 2017-01-09 10:00 PM My mare had the lig snip surgery and the "rehab" was for her to be in a head down/tuck position while lunging to build the top line up.. so I'm confused?? A horse can be fairly level through the neck and tuck their head but still be hollowed through the back and strung out, not using their hind end. Look at most any lower level hunter under saddle or western classes and you will see a lot of this. When the horse engages the hind end and comes up under themselves a couple things happen. One the shoulders lift to get out of the way of the hind end, if you think of where the neck ties into the shoulder as a hinge, when the shoulders lift the neck drops - there's your long and low frame. Secondly, there's a serious of ligaments that run from the poll to the croup. Engaging the hind end, raising the shoulders and dropping the neck tighten and strengthen these, building the top line of the horse in addition to muscle. The dressage base practice of rokur takes this to the extreme of hyperflexion of the head and neck and creates a whole nuther basket of problems. Top line comes from riding the hindend. On a lunge there are a couple training rigs that I like to use in moderation to help get a horse working under himself if one is struggling. Sometimes they figure it out easier that way.
Ditto. I don't know if it causes kissing spine; however, I think it can cause serious issues (especially in a young horse). So many people in all disciplines try to get the 'head set' without the feel through the mouth and the ENTIRE body...meaning the rib cage, the top line of the back and the rear end. In any discipline, the horse has to be correct. I have seen even inexperienced Dressage people/trainers get a horse behind the vertical and then 'hollow out' in the back. In any case, the horse has to be correct. And....you can improve and better yourself in a discipline; BUT.....great horsemanship works no matter the discipiline.
Edited by Gator Bug 2017-01-10 2:15 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 174
| Have you looked into the equiami? I really like this for helping get my horse to use himself properly while I'm bringing him back into shape. I like how he is Abel to figure it out on his own similar to riding and I like ground poles too http://www.equiami.com |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1159
Location: alabama | horses78 - 2017-01-10 5:38 PM
Have you looked into the equiami? I really like this for helping get my horse to use himself properly while I'm bringing him back into shape. I like how he is Abel to figure it out on his own similar to riding and I like ground poles too http://www.equiami.com
do u have the standard one? i think it says its $85 |
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Veteran
Posts: 174
| Yep standard combination you pay via paypal and it converts the euros. I received it fairly quickly too. Really a cool device it allows the horse to use himself correctly and figure it out. Which in turn seems to make it easier under saddle. |
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8699
Location: the end of the rainbow | I don't know if they can cause kissing spine but I firmly believe that draw reins and German martingales can contribute to a whole host of lameness issues. Mostly I find that horses ridden regularly in either contraption get very heavy on their front end and once they start carrying themselves out of balance regularly their joints pay the price. you have
Edited by willrodeo4food 2017-01-11 4:00 PM
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