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 Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
     
Location: Around here somewhere... | (ETA- though I appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not looking for advice, I am ONLY presenting the following cases as a starter for discussion, to help people think of different lameness scenerios. FWIW the gelding is not mine and I will NOT be putting any more money into the mare. :) Thanks! )
How lame is too lame? Is it ethical to ride a horse who has to be on bute/banamine in order to be comfortable enough to ride? Is it ethical to ride a mildly lame horse WITHOUT bute/banamine? Is it ethical to leave a horse who is mildly lame "out to pasture" without medication? (by "mildly lame", I mean a horse who may or may not be lame at the walk, IS lame at the trot, and when at rest points the foot.)For example, what would you do with a young, well broke grade gelding who is mildly lame (even with special shoes that cost $150 & costly injections), but who, if given a shot of banamine, can go on easy trail rides or give lessons to children? Would you give him the shot of banamine, or put him down, or what? (eta- his condition is permanant & can not be cured, only managed, and has been diagnosed with many images of the area).
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 9:47 AM
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My Heelers are Heroes
Posts: 4685
| No, I would not ride him. Not sure what I would do with him though.  |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Here is another example- I have a 2005 mare who is excellent for riding, but went lame almost 2 years ago. I spent a bunch of money on repeated vet visits & xrays, and she is still lame. Basically it came to I could either blindly throw treatments at it and hope it was the right thing& fixed it, or just quit the bleed from my pocketbook. She points her foot when standing, doesn't usually limp visibly at a walk, slightly limps visibly at a trot, and definitely limps under saddle at a trot, slightly at a walk under saddle. Is it unethical to give her some bute/banamine and take her on a 30 min-1hr trail ride?
Fo those who would say "turn her into a broodie"- what is the difference between carrying a rider for 1-2 hours, a few times a week, vs carrying a foal 24/7 for 11 months?
ETA- this mare will happily come galloping up from the field, and goes through all gaits in the pasture, but IS lame. The handful of times I've ridden her in the past 2 years, she has not at all been grumpy or hesitant to move or change gaits, she is extremely stoic, but she has a clear limp when ridden.
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-16 7:37 PM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? |
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Member
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Location: Texas | Just curious. What is the diagnosis? I have one in the pasture right now fits that description. Thought he might just need rest. Now not so sure. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Banjo Fuel - 2013-12-16 6:31 PM Just curious. What is the diagnosis? I have one in the pasture right now fits that description. Thought he might just need rest. Now not so sure.
On my mare? We honestly don't know. The next diagnostic step was to do an MRI or something similar, and I honestly am not willing to pay that kind of money for a trail horse (though I love her dearly). It is FOR SURE in the foot, inside the hoof. |
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Member
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Location: Texas | That's what I'm afraid of. Gonna go ahead and have him checked out after Christmas if he is still lame. Thanks. |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Since you're not a mind reader, does the horse act in pain? I have seen many horses that gimp that don't seem to act in pain. I don't know how to explain that except just spending time with an animal long enough and you'll be able to tell.
There are so many issues that begs the question of what is ethical or not, I don't particularly think it's ethical to let one fade away in a stall...only run barrels and nothing else... etc etc...
My diluted point is this; only you know your horse. The advice your going to get on here is second hand since we are not with you. Do the best you can, and remember for your horse, she could be beaten, starved or whatever and the line of what is right and wrong is often pretty darn blurry.
Edited by RidenFly 2013-12-16 7:45 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 268
| I can tell you I have days when I am "lame" and there is no way I would want to do more exercise/walking than necessary.. |
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  Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | I won't ride a lame one. |
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 Saint Stacey
| Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want a diagnosis on my horses before I decide their future.
I inject as a maintaince if there is indication to do so.
I have a great vet and treat injuries with the most current, practical treatment based on horses injury prognosis and cost.
Not all lameness are forever, abscesses resolve, arthritis is progressive but can be prolonged
Personally I will not knowling ride a sore horse with an undiagnosed lameness.
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | RidenFly - 2013-12-16 6:44 PM Since you're not a mind reader, does the horse act in pain? I have seen many horses that gimp that don't seem to act in pain. I don't know how to explain that except just spending time with an animal long enough and you'll be able to tell.
There are so many issues that begs the question of what is ethical or not, I don't particularly think it's ethical to let one fade away in a stall...only run barrels and nothing else... etc etc...
My diluted point is this; only you know your horse. The advice your going to get on here is second hand since we are not with you. Do the best you can, and remember for your horse, she could be beaten, starved or whatever and the line of what is right and wrong is often pretty darn blurry.
I'm not quite sure of what you're trying to say LOL I'm assuming you are referring to my 2005 mare? She has never been beaten or starved, she was born & raised at my house. I'm not actually asking for advice on her, just using her as an example so that I can get people's opinions on lame horses. She is a broodie now, and will be my pet until she kicks the bucket- I'm just using her as an example. Same as the other horse, and the question about a barrel horse that has to have jooint injections- I'm just trying to get a feel for what other people think is ethical. I am on the fence- I have given horses bute or banamine so that they could be ridden, but I have also (obviously) just accepted the fact that a horse is lame and that's that. In a few years I might start riding my mare again on bute, who knows- or maybe she will come up sound one day... again, who knows. I myself don't see anything exactly "unethical" about it, as long as the horse is recieving vet care & not feeling the pain. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I won't ride a lame horse. I have one that is 18 and retired because of arthritis and a chip in his front knee. It hurts to trim his feet if you pick up that knee to high, he is ok in the pasture ( runs, bucks, plays) but trot on concrete and he is about a 2. He has a huge heart and can still smoke a low 20 in the poles but I won't run him and turn down all offers on him. He was a great horse for us and has earned his retirement.
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-12-16 7:58 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | I would consider quality of life and talk to your vet. If the horse still seems to have good quality of life, is keeping weight, etc then I would not have the horse put down. I guess I feel that unless their quality of life is diminished, they are wasting away, or very obviously in pain all the time then perhaps there are other options. And I would talk to your vet and see what he/she says about the trail rides/children lessons. My mare was initially misdiagnosed with having such horrible suspensory issues that she would never be able to return to barrel racing and I'd be lucky to keep her as a pasture ornament, but the vet said that I could still take her on the occasional trail ride with a little bute/banamine. So although you say your vet isn't sure what the diagnosis is, maybe they can give you some insight?
I understand your concern though. We never want to cause them more pain.
ETA: I would also consider this: Is the banamine/bute relieving the discomfort or is it just masking the pain? If the horse is lame and in pain, I will not ride and mask the pain with bute/banamine. I always want to treat the problem at hand rather than mask the pain and do further damage. My lameness vet said my mare was an 8 on a scale of 1-10 being lame when I brought her in and the problem was NOT due to her suspensories but started in her foot. She is now completely sound do to corrective shoeing but due to her age I will be giving her the equine version of Previcox for arthritis maintenance when we go to 3 day shows. She is not lame and I won't be masking the pain, but simply relieving discomfort due achy joints. Same way I would take a tylenol when my knee gets sore on rainy days
Edited by TACKyPaints 2013-12-16 8:11 PM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | CocoChex - 2013-12-16 6:48 PM I can tell you I have days when I am "lame" and there is no way I would want to do more exercise/walking than necessary..
I wish there were "days" for me... I swear my whole life is under a feeling of lame... my back, my joints, my head... and I still have to earn my keep, and still have to care for the animals lol sigh...... |
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Veteran
Posts: 268
| SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM
Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty.
Agree, I've seen plenty of "off" horses, but the owners don't realize it or are in denial
I won't ride a lame one |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical?
I consider it ethical if the injections are eliminating their pain and discomfort. Injections did not relieve the pain for my gelding who had the chip in his knee so I quit running him. If injections had worked I would still be running him. |
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Member
Posts: 18
Location: Texas | Chips in the knees seems to be a common diagnosis. What causes them? I'm guessing they would show up in an X-ray? |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty.
i agree with riden and skm. lame is open to many subjectives. |
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