|
|
  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| After looking at the new heritage place cataloge and thinking about a few threads on BHW lately, it got me thinking...There has several threads on here that have really been touting the importance of the mare. Here is a chart I made of the top 20 runners for 2013. It includes the horses earnings and the dam and sire earnings. Also the averages of different catagories. I think mare power is important, but in the top 5 the horses sires out earned the mares by 20X's. Be careful not to let the top 4 know that it is all about the mare, they might stop running so hard!
You tell me what you think?
Edited by Whiteboy 2013-12-18 5:09 PM
| |
| | |
 Midget Lover
   
Location: Kentucky | I'm assuming because the sire can have a huge foal crop, so his odds of having a performance proven foal is much greater than a mare who can only have 1 foal (unless ET) a year. | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| | Horse | Earnings | Dam Earning | Sire Earnings | | Handsome Jack Flash | $1,482,271 | $108 | $969,828 | | Feature Hero | $1,362,263 | $23,410 | $668,633 | | Wicked Courage | $819,670 | $30,301 | $1,616,938 | | Foose Cash Sr | $819,670 | $30,301 | $1,616,938 | | Five Bar Cartel | $654,368 | $187,109 | $557,142 | | Bon Accord | $576,238 | $5,979 | $178,606 | | Ms First Prize Rose | $543,595 | $415,047 | $557,142 | | Viva Mi Corazon | $515,369 | $196,578 | $857,256 | | Last to Fire | $1,087,545 | $168,301 | $94,280 | | Turbulent Times | $503,859 | $46,810 | $70,554 | | Ol Time Preacher Man | $503,222 | $50,910 | $136,123 | | Matarabi | $1,321,930 | $109,005 | $687,184 | | Reagle Eagle | $458,640 | $168,135 | $1,387,453 | | Kates Dynasty | $454,090 | $65,580 | $1,173,001 | | Houdini | $448,374 | $36,758 | $668,633 | | Skuze Please | $428,234 | $14,246 | $305,250 | | Big Biz Perry | $424,850 | $25,260 | $687,184 | | You N How Many More | $399,653 | $66,531 | $52,783 | | Point Break Dash | $411,927 | $73,706 | $857,256 | | Wagon Tales | $386,061 | $30,044 | $889,581 | | Top 5 Avg | $1,027,648 | $54,246 | $1,085,896 | | Top 10 Avg | $836,485 | $110,394 | $718,732 | | Top 20 Avg | $680,091 | $87,206 | $701,588 | Hopefully this one is easier to read. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| Given that a sire can have hundreds of foals in their lifetime and a mare can have 1 (or 2 with ET) per year, having a stallion with 5 top money earners is not nearly as impressive as having a mare with 5 top money earners. | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Look at secretariat he was known as a broodmare sire, his large heart gene is carried on the X chromosome, so only the fillies carried the gene. I know there are confirmed X factor in quarter horses too, ultimately the mare is responsible for this.
Also looking at hypp, and all other genetic disorders are being linked to the stallion
I don't know what the answer is, but more things to think about | |
| | |
Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 3:13 PM The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? Yeah earnings matter -- but when you compare 1 earning offspring of a dam against 100 earning offspring of a sire, the law of averages pretty much appear to favor the sire.
Edited by SC Wrangler 2013-12-18 3:31 PM
| |
| | |
Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I have always felt that the mare was more important. That being said, we always to a great mare to what we felt was a great stud. | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SC Wrangler - 2013-12-18 3:29 PM Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 3:13 PM The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? Yeah earnings matter -- but when you compare 1 earning offspring of a dam against 100 earning offspring of a sire, the law of averages pretty much appear to favor the sire.
Averages would look at it as all dams to all sires. Not any 1 in specific. The sires out earn the dams by several times in the average. | |
| | |
Regular
Posts: 75
Location: Iowa | Great topic!! Thanks for the interesting info!! I'm really interested in what others thoughts are on this topic. | |
| | |
 Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Very interesting, Whiteboy, very interesting indeed........ | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| | Mr Runaway | $71,908 | $336,588 | $1,642,498 | | Osaka Moon | $71,803 | $352,305 | $27,814 | | Worlds on High | $223,433 | $17,657 | $225,096 | | Streakin Ellen | $109,720 | $80,455 | $225,096 | | Snowboundbeast | $72,131 | $900 | $56,520 | | Win Rabbits fly | $97,269 | $8,323 | $55,658 | | Check my thoughts | $429,434 | $125,920 | $418,528 | | Required fire | $71,235 | $116,509 | $94,280 | | Feature Malinche | $77,500 | $8,748 | $539,327 | | Chico Horse | $0 | $38,029 | $0 | | Hez our Secret | $873,426 | $18,928 | $857,256 | | T boy p | $89,735 | $1,971 | $31,928 | | Eyesa Wagon Maker | $69,293 | $106,494 | $889,581 | | Osbaldo | $305,419 | $0 | $167,275 | | Alis Jumpn | $68,430 | $9,705 | $187,555 | | Quirky | $68,390 | $7,667 | $111,584 | | Loves Brown Sugar | $101,735 | $23,654 | $101,614 | | Daltsguninforsuccess | $67,637 | $20,796 | $181,497 | | Honoroso | $89,329 | $0 | $55,658 | | Lavish Susan | $115,298 | $25,601 | $889,044 | | Bottom 20 Avg | $153,656 | $65,013 | $337,890 | | Bottom 10 Avg | $184,869 | $21,482 | $347,299 | | Bottom 5 Avg | $88,478 | $15,544 | $267,879 |
The bottom are the bottom 20 of the top 200 horses haha.
Edited by Whiteboy 2013-12-18 5:09 PM
| |
| | |
 Saint Stacey
| I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true. | |
| | |
Saint Stacey
| If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track.....
Edited by SKM 2013-12-18 5:27 PM
| |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:17 PM I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true.
I agree you need strong horses throughout the pedigree. Your suggestion of adding up the earnings of the produce and dividing by the number of foals is a fine suggestion, but that would prove the most potent dams and sires and not answer the general question. Maybe it cant be answered. In the heritage sale there are some horses that really should have done something by pedigree. Incredibly strong sire and dam, and still nothing. There has to be more to it than pure luck. | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:24 PM If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track.....
And look at the dam line. Not much mare there. Whats with that? | |
| | |
Saint Stacey
| And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc...
Edited by SKM 2013-12-18 5:34 PM
| |
| | |
Saint Stacey
| Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:29 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:24 PM If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track..... And look at the dam line. Not much mare there. Whats with that?
It can happen from time to time. Look at the dam of Moon Lark and also look at Super De Kas. | |
| | |
Saint Stacey
| Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:28 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:17 PM I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true. I agree you need strong horses throughout the pedigree. Your suggestion of adding up the earnings of the produce and dividing by the number of foals is a fine suggestion, but that would prove the most potent dams and sires and not answer the general question. Maybe it cant be answered. In the heritage sale there are some horses that really should have done something by pedigree. Incredibly strong sire and dam, and still nothing. There has to be more to it than pure luck.
You could have a great horse, but if it gets in the hands of a poor trainer, then it only looks mediocre.
You can also have a great horse. But if their mind isn't on business then they won't look too spectacular.
There are simply too many variables when it comes to the whole business of running horses and success. I've seen great horses look just okay because of sheer bad luck. | |
| | |
That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:33 PM And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc...
But then look at sizzling lil. I'm not trying to discount mare power, I just think there is more to it. Other place where you might get more bang for you buck. Whether that be sire, training, feeding, I just what the magic combination. lol | |
| |
| |
Folks on-line