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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | I have a gelding that has not been messed with much in the past 7 1/2 years. Long story short (I've posted about it before if anyone remembers) he reared up with me and flipped over top and I pretty much just walked away from anything to do with horses.
The gelding (he'll be 16 next month) still pulls his rearing up issues with me whenever I try to ride him so I've set up a round pen in hopes of kinda wearing him down before I ride him. Well, he lunged okay-ish for about 3-4 minutes the first time we (my husband has been trying to help me when he has time) worked with him and then he just stopped. He would not give me his feet and constantly faced me and mimicked my every footstep instead of being respectful and letting me be #1. (he's had my number for years!)
After a couple of times of trying to lunge him and not getting anywhere I gave up. This weekened I happened to watch Clinton Anderson's episode on aggressive horses and I thought maybe if I just went in with a lunge whip and no halter or leadrope that he would move for me. Well, yet again, he moved good for about 3/4ths of a lap around the pen and just stopped and turned away from me (I'm pretty sure he would have tried to kick). He then tried to jump out of the round pen!!! I might not would have minded too much if it wasn't just some portable panels set up, but he could do some serious damage to both himself and the panels if I would have kept trying to move him. He would finally turn around and began his mimicking tactics of not giving me his feet and continuing his disrespect. I left him be for about 30 minutes and came back to try and work with him again and he immediately started trying to jump over (the panels are about 5 1/5 tall) again so I wound up just letting him out.
I'm at my wits end with this horse. If you aren't trying to make him mind he is the most gentle, in your pocket type of horse. I'm not really even wanting to ride him anymore at this point, I just don't want to lose and I know it's not right to let him win.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | He's got your number....either send him to a trainer for 90 days..or get a trainer to take him to and get lessons with him...you cant call his bluff and then back off...I would start him over...from ground up...with any luck they could be riding him in 15 to 20 days since a lot of the work is done already but he needs some solid schooling and manners....otherwise he's going to hurt and/or scare you bad enough not to try again... |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
  
Location: Riding Crackhead. | I honestly would have to be super in love with him to keep him around. There's a lot of nice horses around. If you send him to a trainer make sure you continue on when you get him back. A lot of times they revert back to the old ways when you get them back. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1482
Location: on my horse | Honestly there are too many nice horses out there to risk your neck with one that you're afraid of and that is aggressive and seemingly unwilling to work with you. I don't have any advice other than a hug and maybe try to find him someone else.  |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Have you put him on a lounge line wher he can get away from,you but you can still beat his arse. Maybe give,him some ace so,you can get be ahead of him. But he needs his arse beat in a nice way. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Dude whip his ass! And don't let him quit moving until YOU say so. This means more than 3-4 minutes. I would be giving him two a days and tying him up in between. Like Clinton says, he's not going to send you a card when you're in the hospital. |
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![](<a href="http://s1191.photobucket.com/albums/z470/alicat0909/?action=view¤t=yellaandcalf.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1191.photobu) Heeler Hater
Posts: 3014
Location: Texas | For me, I stick a stud chain on them and a longe line and when that go to turning away from or being aggressive I yank their nose off. Its harsh yes but but they learn I mean business and it only takes a session or two before I have their respect. Not many people will agree but my safety is more important than his feelings. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| hammer_time - 2014-02-18 10:53 PM
Dude whip his ass! And don't let him quit moving until YOU say so. This means more than 3-4 minutes. I would be giving him two a days and tying him up in between. Like Clinton says, he's not going to send you a card when you're in the hospital.
I have a gelding like this, he is absolutely dangerous but he's so dangerous I won't get rid of him. I ran into this same problem, he flipped over on me one time and I stopped riding him (I got on different horses and train for other people still today). 4 years ago, after he had been out to pasture for 3 years with zero handling, now at the ripe age of 19 years old, I decided to tackle my fear because he was a top notch pole bending horse, and I wanted to win some stuff with him. So I tried to lunge him and he tried to go through our solid wood round pen, and even took a couple of the top boards off when he tried to jump over it. I snapped a lunge line on him with a chain and every time he went to do it, I jerked his butt into the ground (flipped him over more than once, and he kept it up), until I could not beat anymore brains into him and was about to give up, but I sent him around one last time, I jerked, and he dropped his head, licked his lips, and never tried it again. That required lunging for quite some time (longest was 35 minutes that very last time and most of it was a plain beating session). I was able to win multiple awards on him that year, but then he ripped his hoof off in a pasture fight, and so he was out to rest for his hoof to grow back (and it did over the winter) but he had reverted back to his old self and I have never been able to get him back. He's 23 years old now (i think. lol), and is living out the rest of his life in my pasture on his retirement plan. haha
Before everyone jumps on me for this, this gelding was and still is dangerous to this day, and COMPLETELY bi-polar. He can't feel pain (he wasn't lame when he ripped his hoof off, not one bit), and he has had his fair share of nice days with me too. I never had to beat him again that show season. (well, ok, I did end up flipping him over again when he copped an attitude near the end, and I just barely jerked on him and I think he scared himself over. haha and it was back to being a good boy) |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I originally had plans to send him off and turn around and sell him once he was rideable again... but my dad told my nephew that it could be "his horse". He's obviously not going to be trying to rode him, he's strictly a pasture ornament and since he is kept at my parents (I'm certainly not moving him to my place and feeding him!) and they are the ones who bought him for me 11 years ago I really have no ground to stand on. I could send him to someone, but I know that would have to come out of my own pocket and I don't want the trainer bill since I won't be able to recover any of my costs. I'd rather keep saving my money for a decent horse. I literally feel like I am beating a dead horse. I'm not sure of my whip doesn't have enough sting or what it is, but he had rather me stand there and whip him to no end versus giving me his feet. I wish my round pen set up was more sturdy and I'd have no problem if he wanted to get jumpy and I knew he wasn't posing a more serious harm.I would have my husband (I know the horse can sense my apprehension about riding him) try to ride him, but he really only has time on the weekends... if even that.I think I will try to start two a days with him and see about converting a stock corral into a more sturdy round pen.Any whip suggestions? I'm just using a typical lunge whip, but I'm wondering if leather would be more effective? Also, would a hotshot be too harsh? I know it's not going to give me distance I'd like to have from him, but I am at a loss for creativity. I tried a plastic sack around a training whip one day.... he moved for about 1 minute until he figured the bag posed no serious threat.It's just so frustrating knowing that I started riding this horse when I was 13! I'm 24 now and can't seem to get anywhere!!! |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Alicat0909 - 2014-02-18 10:04 PM
For me, I stick a stud chain on them and a longe line and when that go to turning away from or being aggressive I yank their nose off. Its harsh yes but but they learn I mean business and it only takes a session or two before I have their respect. Not many people will agree but my safety is more important than his feelings.
I never thought of this!!!! This might get me somewhere with the whole "I'm just going to put my butt in your face" attitude. |
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Honestly, if your dad wants to keep him around let him but I wouldn't waste my time on him. Each time you work with him and he wins you are literally training him that his bad behavior is what you want & that it is perfectly acceptable. I'm not trying to be mean in saying this, but reality is you are doing more harm in working with him than you would be in just leaving him alone since he is winning every session.
If you are using a typical lunge whip trust me it has more than enough bite to get your point across. You just have to know how to get the snap out of it. If I need to I can put a welt on a horse in ONE snap of my whip. You said you where worried about him kicking you if you whipped to much, do NOT use a hot shot as that puts you in way closer range than the whip does if you are using it right.
If I was working with this horse I would either have him in a rope halter with knots on the nose or a nylon halter & stud chain over his nose. I would start lunging him & the second he tried to take his face & spin away from me his nose would get jerked off AND at the same time the whip would bite his ass to send him forward. Because your roundpen is just pannels (mine is the same) I would not work him without a halter on as things can go wrong to fast if you don't stay in control. |
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 Living within my means
Posts: 5128
Location: Randolph, Utah | At 16 id say he is a lost cause! Ship him, shoot him, put him down, do something but I wouldn't keep him around. To many good ones to have a bad one around. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: Southern OK aka God's Country | It's your decision ultimately but with this horse's age I would also say that you're wasting your time and frustration. Like others said, there are way too many nice horses that want to work for you to sour yourself on this one. I am currently dealing with a 3 year old gelding that began to turn and kick both back feet at us in the roundpen when he decided he didn't want to work anymore. We put a bit on him and attached the longe line to the bit so that as soon as he began to put his head down and away from us, we would crank it back around with the bit. It got a lot more respect from him than the halter alone (and we were using a Clinton Anderson knotted halter). With it being winter and me working until dark, and the admission that I had never dealt with such a disrespectful horse, which is scary, I sent him to a trainer. I know how you feel: frustrated and defeated. But I console myself with the fact that I've got 4 other horses that are nothing like that and that are respectful and honest. Don't let one bad experience with a challenging horse make you question everything you've worked for to this point (I might be counseling myself a little here lol). For a 16 year old horse, I would probably either sell him and cut my losses or put him back out to pasture and leave him be if you don't want to spend the money on a trainer. |
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | I owned a horse years ago that would flip over when you tried to ride him. If you put him in a round pen he would refuse to move, he would stand so close to the person trying to get him to move he was a danger. I made sure he made it on the kill truck because I didn't want someone to end up with him and have him kill them when they tried to mess with them. Its unfortunate when they are like this but it is simply not worth dealing with. Be careful working with him he can kill you trying to rush the fence like that!! |
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More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | SaraJean - 2014-02-18 10:40 PM Honestly, if your dad wants to keep him around let him but I wouldn't waste my time on him. Each time you work with him and he wins you are literally training him that his bad behavior is what you want & that it is perfectly acceptable. I'm not trying to be mean in saying this, but reality is you are doing more harm in working with him than you would be in just leaving him alone since he is winning every session.
If you are using a typical lunge whip trust me it has more than enough bite to get your point across. You just have to know how to get the snap out of it. If I need to I can put a welt on a horse in ONE snap of my whip. You said you where worried about him kicking you if you whipped to much, do NOT use a hot shot as that puts you in way closer range than the whip does if you are using it right.
If I was working with this horse I would either have him in a rope halter with knots on the nose or a nylon halter & stud chain over his nose. I would start lunging him & the second he tried to take his face & spin away from me his nose would get jerked off AND at the same time the whip would bite his ass to send him forward. Because your roundpen is just pannels (mine is the same) I would not work him without a halter on as things can go wrong to fast if you don't stay in control.
Exactly. At his age adding to his attitude - walk away. Its not your problem. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Thanks, everyone! I certainly don't want to keep letting him get away with his actions and let someone wind up hurt. It's just crazy, I've never seen a horse be so different when he's not in a power struggle. He will not leave you alone. My dad loves the horse and is perfectly okay with letting him die there someday, so I will just leave it at that and move on. |
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More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Longneck - 2014-02-19 8:30 AM Thanks, everyone! I certainly don't want to keep letting him get away with his actions and let someone wind up hurt. It's just crazy, I've never seen a horse be so different when he's not in a power struggle. He will not leave you alone. My dad loves the horse and is perfectly okay with letting him die there someday, so I will just leave it at that and move on.
By making that decision you're showing a lot of class and maturity. Plus you're saving a lot of money in medical bills.   |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Either just leave him alone or get some help. He has your number on the ground as well as riding him. If sending him to a trainer is out of the question, then see if you can pay someone to come help you with him and see if they get anywhere with him.
I would've put a lunge line with a stud chain over his nose and beat his butt when he got stupid. Do NOT use a hotshot, there is no place for them around a horse. EVER. Someone will get seriously hurt. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| I guess I can't understand why you can't get him to move out with a lunge whip. You don't take the pressure away and you increase the intensity until he responds. If he is facing you and your asking him to move out and he just continues to face you I would start using the whip on the shoulder, pointing where you want him to go, and start out light and just keep going and increasing the pressure until he moves away, then stop the pressure while he is still moving and watch for signs of give from him, ear cocked to you, licking lips, lowering head. When that happens and you stop him he then should face you and have all his attention on you at all times. He shouldn't walk up to you because then he would be invading your space, which is a sign of disrespect. where ever you move he should move so that he is facing you and about a horse link away. He can come into your space, only when you invite him, which can be a step toward him, light touch on the shoulder, etc. I would do all of it with out a lunge line and halter on him. If he acts like he wants to go over the top, I wouldn't decrease the pressure, I would continue with what I was asking and maybe even increase the pressure so that he has to respond faster and he moves out and around the round pen. If you stop asking anything from him the moment he acts like he is going to try and go over the top he will eventually figure out that all he has to do is climb the wall and you'll leave him alone. If your worried about him catching a leg, cover the panels with ply wood. I personally have no patience for a horse that wants to act an idiot.
One more thing, Are you sure that you're not asking to much at one time from him? Releasing pressure at the slightest pogress and using that to build off of.
Edited by FlyingJT 2014-02-19 9:50 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Longneck - 2014-02-19 8:30 AM
Thanks, everyone! I certainly don't want to keep letting him get away with his actions and let someone wind up hurt. It's just crazy, I've never seen a horse be so different when he's not in a power struggle. He will not leave you alone. My dad loves the horse and is perfectly okay with letting him die there someday, so I will just leave it at that and move on.
It sounds like you walking away permanently will be the best thing.
From your first post it sounded like the horse faced up to you, I was always taught this is what you want.
When round penning a horse if your feet quit moving then theirs should too then they should face up.
I also look for signs the horses are subduing the dropping of the head, licking their lips, ear turned toward me.
Also no matter what you never walk away.
If you ever feel like working this horse, get a trainer to teach you how to work a horse in the round pen. |
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