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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
  
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I am curious and want your thoughts on these horses. AQHA is no longer just a breed, but breeds within itself (think AQHA shows). AND that just because a horse is a Supreme Champion, does not make everyone come out of the wood work to breed to them. Sad but I feel it is true.
Most are race bred (if not all) because AAA rating is a requirement. They earn halter points and performance points, but as someone that shows AQHA myself and knows someone that is a World Champion, you can pick and choose where you show to better your chances at points (less competition etc).
The one I have in mind was AAA (won over $20,000), has halter, hunter under saddle and roping points. Very different classes. For the haters, please remember I am not trying to take anything away from this stallion. It is AWESOME what he has accomplished. But in today's breeding, I just don't see it being a big deal to most mare owners and here is why...
The people that
** race, will breed to a race Champion with earnings most likely over $100,000-$1 million
**show Hunter Under Saddle want one that is a Congress or World Champion and the biggie here...over 17 hands
**show halter want one that is a AQHA World Chamion/Superior Halter that is 16+ hands tall and 1400 lbs + (bloodlines make a diff here)
**that barrel race want what is proving to sire barrel horses-DTF, FWF, FG
**that rope, if you look up in the journal, just about any bloodline will meet this requirement that is foundation, or the bigger built cutters/reined cowhorse.
so with all that it costs to show AQHA, stalls, gas, hotels, judge fees, drug tests, show entries, is it worth it to try to get a Supreme champion within a breed when no one (I'm talking your big owners/trainers/breeders) no longer cares about the QH versitilty?
Thoughts? |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| I think it is neat to see that some people still try to do it. But I don't think I would breed to one that didn't have some super solid credentials. The problem is that a horse with super solid credential isn't goint to waste their time on another dicipline. They won't send Slick By Design to the roping pen, it isn't worth the risk to the horse or reputation.
Edited by Whiteboy 2014-02-28 12:37 PM
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | IME (ya I'm old and I remember when they used to have 10+ live Supreme Champions scattered across the country...before shipped semen) a Supreme Champion accomplishment isn't worth the expense of doing it. I agree it's a great thing but it doesn't make the stallion more marketable to most people. The ones I saw, fizzled as breeding stallions because of lack of interest and people to promote their offspring. This was actually BEFORE the diversity was bred out of the breed by the judged event people.
That said, I think there are still many versatile stallions/mares/geldings in timed event peoples barns because we don't really give a flying flip about anything but are they going to stay sound and are they going to perform and win. Yes pedigree is important to us, but it's possible for a new stallion to make a splash in the current popular pond of genetics. That's why the timed event people are still breeding allaround type horses. We want pretty and good conformation. They have to have speed but not necessarily AAA speed. They also have to have a brain and want to do something besides run Mach I with their hair on fire. So we are keeping the best of the breed (IMO) alive in our barns.  |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Good topic!
And by the way. The only reason you're seeing Supreme Champions again is because they are not showing against the "halter horse" that has become the standard for that discipline. There is no way a racebred horse would be able to beat a real halter bred horse. That's how screwed up AQHA shows have become. Again IMO 
Edited by OregonBR 2014-02-28 1:07 PM
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | Did Lucks EasyFanta Boy win his points in regular halter or performance halter? |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| For my program, I wouldn't breed to one unless he fit what I needed for a specific mare. I also don't often breed to unproven stallions though. I'll occasionally breed to one, but more times than not there are reasons (price combined with location).
My goal is to produce super fast, sound horses who are excellent on the track. I don't care as much about versatility...I do care about speed and conformation. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Thanks for your input. I love a nice sized (15-15.2 hand) horse, but it has to have some substance too. We ranch on our horses and we aren't blessed with smooth, pretty grass land. They are rough, nasty pastures so the 14 hand 800lb horses would faint if they didn't break down first. We went with running bred horses (and pick and choose mares based on build). They have all shown extreme cow sense too so for us, we try and do it all with what we have. It's the running bred horses that are more marketable for us based on where we live (we sell 99% over the internet).
I just had someone saying how the people should quit breeding for one extreme or the other so the judges don't just keep on placing horses the way they have been.. But who in their right mind is going to spend the money to raise and train a 15.2 hand horse and try and compete in cutting or better yet, hunter under saddle. So even though we can breed a horse and win a Supreme championship, it's just not reality that these horses can really honestly compete with the ELITE of each descipline-Racing, Cutting, Halter, Hunter Under Saddle, Western Pleasure. And that is due to how the judge places them and what they look for to win. Showing AQHA is too expensive to TRY and change the judges mind by showing something that isn't standard in that event ie. the 17.2 hand slender hunter under saddle horse or the cutter that has all that style and agility because they are 14 hands and weight 300 lbs less than other QH's. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | equussynergy - 2014-02-28 12:25 PM Did Lucks EasyFanta Boy win his points in regular halter or performance halter?
I may be wrong, but I don't think they had Performance Halter back then. I tried to find a list of all the Supreme Champions but no luck. There was a gelding that won one, he was by Corona Cartel and out of a DFC mare. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| kuhlmann - 2014-02-28 1:39 PM For my program, I wouldn't breed to one unless he fit what I needed for a specific mare. I also don't often breed to unproven stallions though. I'll occasionally breed to one, but more times than not there are reasons (price combined with location).
My goal is to produce super fast, sound horses who are excellent on the track. I don't care as much about versatility...I do care about speed and conformation.
I think most of the time one that was a Supreme Champion, would probably be considered proven. But it could also mean a AAA speed index and $10k in earnings. That doens't even compare to $200k in earnings. I still think it is a fine marketing tool but I want to see what was done while earning that title. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Whiteboy - 2014-02-28 11:35 AM I think it is neat to see that some people still try to do it. But I don't think I would breed to one that didn't have some super solid credentials. The problem is that a horse with super solid credential isn't goint to waste their time on another dicipline. They won't send Slick By Design to the roping pen, it isn't worth the risk to the horse or reputation.
What would you consider solid credentials?
I see what you are saying with them being worth too much in one event to try another. You can also think about this. A horse that is AAA and won $100,000 + has probably been down the track quite a few times and may not be sound enough to pursue another career (no fault of the horse) or why risk it? I mean FDD only raced to 3. If he had been started on barrels after and then broke a leg, it would have been a big loss to the breed as a whole.
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| wyoming barrel racer - 2014-02-28 2:06 PM Whiteboy - 2014-02-28 11:35 AM I think it is neat to see that some people still try to do it. But I don't think I would breed to one that didn't have some super solid credentials. The problem is that a horse with super solid credential isn't goint to waste their time on another dicipline. They won't send Slick By Design to the roping pen, it isn't worth the risk to the horse or reputation. What would you consider solid credentials?
I see what you are saying with them being worth too much in one event to try another. You can also think about this. A horse that is AAA and won $100,000 + has probably been down the track quite a few times and may not be sound enough to pursue another career (no fault of the horse) or why risk it? I mean FDD only raced to 3. If he had been started on barrels after and then broke a leg, it would have been a big loss to the breed as a whole.
I think the solid credential depend on the dicipline, race-stakes race winner, barrel/roping-world championship, but another event isn't going to make him more valuable for breeding purposes. I think that breeding for performance and soundness is about the only thing that makes sense, makes me scratch my head when people breed broke down horses. What are they aiming for - more broke down horses? |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Whiteboy - 2014-02-28 1:16 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-02-28 2:06 PM Whiteboy - 2014-02-28 11:35 AM I think it is neat to see that some people still try to do it. But I don't think I would breed to one that didn't have some super solid credentials. The problem is that a horse with super solid credential isn't goint to waste their time on another dicipline. They won't send Slick By Design to the roping pen, it isn't worth the risk to the horse or reputation. What would you consider solid credentials?
I see what you are saying with them being worth too much in one event to try another. You can also think about this. A horse that is AAA and won $100,000 + has probably been down the track quite a few times and may not be sound enough to pursue another career (no fault of the horse) or why risk it? I mean FDD only raced to 3. If he had been started on barrels after and then broke a leg, it would have been a big loss to the breed as a whole.
so pretty much what I posted in my 1st post. Halter horse breeders want World Champ etc.
For me personally, I want the best race breeding I can find. I just like them. I don't race and we foal in May so most don't get sold to race either. But I have my eye on Jess Jones, Pappasito and Cartel Success (would love to check them out in person) for a couple of mares I have. I like their credentials whether the babies end up on the track or barrels. They are more than proven on the track and a couple are making a name as sires.
The soundness thing is great too, but so hard when dealing with race horses. Did they break down because of human error or because they weren't built to hold up. Some are obvious and then you have a horse like Takin On The Cash that was terribly over at the knee and won Champion Aged stallion and several other top honors. His offspring seem to hold up well too, both on the track and barrels. |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| By proven I mean I want a true, legit, stakes winning, door blowing off, race horse.
I bred one to Red Oak Special last year and I'm breeding another one to him this year...he doesn't have the race record I'd usually like...BUT, he is big, solid, a super cool dude, and his babies can freaking fly! So....I'm breeding to him.
That said, I'm also breeding to One Sweet Jess who doesn't have foals running yet....but he was a race horse and his family speaks for itself.
Next year I plan to breed to an unproven stallion with all of my mares... ... ..because I want to prove him. Hopefully he runs well this year, but we'll see what happens.
I have no desire to breed to a jack of all trades and master of none though....it doesn't work for what I want to produce. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-02-28 11:59 AM Thanks for your input. I love a nice sized (15-15.2 hand) horse, but it has to have some substance too. We ranch on our horses and we aren't blessed with smooth, pretty grass land. They are rough, nasty pastures so the 14 hand 800lb horses would faint if they didn't break down first. We went with running bred horses (and pick and choose mares based on build). They have all shown extreme cow sense too so for us, we try and do it all with what we have. It's the running bred horses that are more marketable for us based on where we live (we sell 99% over the internet).
I just had someone saying how the people should quit breeding for one extreme or the other so the judges don't just keep on placing horses the way they have been.. But who in their right mind is going to spend the money to raise and train a 15.2 hand horse and try and compete in cutting or better yet, hunter under saddle. So even though we can breed a horse and win a Supreme championship, it's just not reality that these horses can really honestly compete with the ELITE of each descipline-Racing, Cutting, Halter, Hunter Under Saddle, Western Pleasure. And that is due to how the judge places them and what they look for to win. Showing AQHA is too expensive to TRY and change the judges mind by showing something that isn't standard in that event ie. the 17.2 hand slender hunter under saddle horse or the cutter that has all that style and agility because they are 14 hands and weight 300 lbs less than other QH's.
Exactly.
People will breed what wins or they will get out of the game. I feel it's the judges responsibility to reward the right animals and that's the ONLY way to affect change if that is indeed what they want. Halter breeders breed HYPP horses because they think they bulk up easier and that's what wins. If the judges didn't reward the biggest muscled horses and instead rewarded a horse of medium muscle with better leg conformation, MAYBE they could get the standard to change into a sounder horse who could be ridden under saddle someday. As it is....good luck getting anything to change.
I learned a very long time ago, I didn't care about one mans opinion when it comes to what horse I will ride or own. My judge is the clock. But I do like to look at a pretty horse, so I want both a horse that will cut the clock off and one that is easy on the eyes and easy to live with.  |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | OregonBR - 2014-02-28 3:04 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-02-28 11:59 AM Thanks for your input. I love a nice sized (15-15.2 hand) horse, but it has to have some substance too. We ranch on our horses and we aren't blessed with smooth, pretty grass land. They are rough, nasty pastures so the 14 hand 800lb horses would faint if they didn't break down first. We went with running bred horses (and pick and choose mares based on build). They have all shown extreme cow sense too so for us, we try and do it all with what we have. It's the running bred horses that are more marketable for us based on where we live (we sell 99% over the internet).
I just had someone saying how the people should quit breeding for one extreme or the other so the judges don't just keep on placing horses the way they have been.. But who in their right mind is going to spend the money to raise and train a 15.2 hand horse and try and compete in cutting or better yet, hunter under saddle. So even though we can breed a horse and win a Supreme championship, it's just not reality that these horses can really honestly compete with the ELITE of each descipline-Racing, Cutting, Halter, Hunter Under Saddle, Western Pleasure. And that is due to how the judge places them and what they look for to win. Showing AQHA is too expensive to TRY and change the judges mind by showing something that isn't standard in that event ie. the 17.2 hand slender hunter under saddle horse or the cutter that has all that style and agility because they are 14 hands and weight 300 lbs less than other QH's. Exactly.
People will breed what wins or they will get out of the game. I feel it's the judges responsibility to reward the right animals and that's the ONLY way to affect change if that is indeed what they want. Halter breeders breed HYPP horses because they think they bulk up easier and that's what wins. If the judges didn't reward the biggest muscled horses and instead rewarded a horse of medium muscle with better leg conformation, MAYBE they could get the standard to change into a sounder horse who could be ridden under saddle someday. As it is....good luck getting anything to change.
I learned a very long time ago, I didn't care about one mans opinion when it comes to what horse I will ride or own. My judge is the clock. But I do like to look at a pretty horse, so I want both a horse that will cut the clock off and one that is easy on the eyes and easy to live with.
And THIS is exactly why I made this post. The discussion I was talking about was all about blaming the breeders and in my opinion, it isn't the breeders fault for wanting to win and the only way to win is to raise what the JUDGES place first. And in doing so, we are raising different breed standards within a breed. By someone having the money and the good horse to go out and win a Supreme Championship, it doesn't matter, no one is changing the AQHA breed in the long run. |
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 I Love My Mares!
Posts: 1613
Location: Moved to Montana | For a younger stallion with out a bunch of colts on the ground to judge by a supreme champion would raise my interest as a horse with enough speed to shut off the clock and the brain to take the training. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | toomanycolts - 2014-02-28 4:09 PM For a younger stallion with out a bunch of colts on the ground to judge by a supreme champion would raise my interest as a horse with enough speed to shut off the clock and the brain to take the training. I'm not DISSING the stallion if that is what you are thinking. I am actually trying to prove a point that has to do with AQHA SHOWS and AQHA racing. Since most AQHA Supreme champions are race bred, I see them catching the barrel racer breeders attention. Showing AQHA is expensive, I am making a point about JUDGES and people complaining about BREEDERS not helping out the AQHA breed. When in fact if you don't have what is STANDARD in the "show world" your horse, your time and your MONEY is a lost cause.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2014-02-28 5:30 PM
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I didn't mean that to come off as nasty, but this particular post made by someone was blaming those that want to WIN in their prospective event for the demise of the AQHA bred horse. It wasn't made by the owner of a Supreme horse either just FYI |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| If I were breeding for a barrel horse, I'd likely look at a very new supreme champion. His pedigree is solid enough, and he looks to be a neat horse.
I just don't think he will demand respect at yearling sales which is a big consideration for me. I have to breed for a fast, sound horse that will sell. |
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 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | I'd definitely breed to a Supreme Champion. I had a pleasure horse (HYPP positive actually) and he taught me the value of all-around horses. He was a jack of all trades, master of none type of horse (except Showmanship) but had points in a lot of different events. Sometimes I'd take a jack of all trades horse over a master of none but that's just me. Depends on the stud though. But I would agree that today it would be a heck of a lot easier to halter point with the Performance Halter they have now. |
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