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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: My own little world :) | I have a gelding that really cross fires when I make him lope a circle. I've had him vet checked and he's had some chiro work. He is really a giant project...I'll never make any money on him in regards to reselling but I will sure learn a lot from him. He is 12 years old and is pretty much trail broke but nothing else. Is there anything I can do to help him figure out how to catch his leads correctly? I just figure the more I lope him hopefully the better he will get.
He is also very rigid and stiff and doesn't give to leg pressure. Does anyone have any good tips for softening up such an older horse? I've been riding him in just a smooth mouth ring snaffle until he gets the basics down or should I try something else? All opinions and suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Thanks! |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
 
Location: Arizona | Make sure he's collected before you ask him for his leads. Do lots of flexing, side-passing, rollbacks, etc..really make him use his hind-end. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| I would try and get chiro out on a regular basis, such as every few weeks until he no longer needs adjusted. I would also get massage out as he may have some muscle problems. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Does he cross fire every time? Does he start off on the wrong lead or drop his lead during the circle? What size circle are you loping? |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Cross firing may be as simple as a poor shoeing job. I'd start from the bottom and work up. |
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | The majority of times I've had this happen it's been hocks that needed to be injected. |
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Member
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| Does he cross fire when loping in a round pen or when no one is on him? In my experience if a horse cross fires or swaps a bunch when no one is on them its a soreness issue. Hocks, Stifles etc..
I had a 3 year old with sore stifles that would cross fire with or with out a rider. Once the stifles where fixed the cross firing stopped. Just a thought. |
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 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| Another vet check. Something may have been missed. Could be as simple as bad angles on back feet who knows. But, cross firing is not a "normal" thing. Unless they're just truly uncoordinated and in that case, not gonna be barrel horse material. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | Ok so heres a little backstory on this gelding...I purchased him for dirt cheap from a friend that had some trouble with him as he liked to buck a bit. I thought since he was cheap and I love to learn he would be a good project no matter what. Just basically to make me better. The first thing I noticed was that he had a large raised area in the loin area of his spinal column so I got him adjusted and thats looking much better. Then I took him to the vet and had a basic soundness evaluation and found that he was somewhat lame on the right front. Nothing huge but you can tell something is there. I know I know...how stupid am I for buying this guy right? I also got his teeth done and my vet said they didn't look bad but you could tell he probably never had them done before. Since he looked a bit sore on the right front and his frog on the right front was a bit smaller than the left one I had his shoes pulled and got him trimmed so he hasn't have any shoes on for about 4-5 months and I think he only had maybe one set on before that in about a year period. So after all of that he hasn't bucked or offered to buck so thats nice. He really travels on the front end and can be pretty stiff. But when you get him in a circle he will really give his head and bend around...but he will sometimes swing his hind end if you don't really keep him coordinated.
I haven't really had the opportunity to lope circles on him yet...its been pretty slick at my house and he can get pretty fired up sometimes so when I'm on him I just try to get the basics down at a walk and trot before we decide to move up. So he crossfires in the round pen with no one on him. He does it with and without the saddle and usually he will pick of the correct lead and then lose it in the hind end after a few strides. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Ok, generally speaking a horse that just doesn't know it's leads will pick up the lead they are most comfortable with given the choice, but they will hold that lead until you stop them or they figure it out and switch. If he's picking up a lead and dropping it behind after a few strides, he has something wrong back there. It's either his stifles or hocks but it could also be SI considering you said he has had chrio for a hump in his loin. The hump could also just be over devolped muslce from compensating. If when you are riding him at a trot or a lope and he trips behind or he might also trip on a downward transition, he needs a closer look at his stifles. If he is not tripping but just consistently dropping leads behind, its most likely his hocks. That's generally speaking there is always an exception. These things don't always show up on a lameness exam because like everything else it never happens when the vet is looking. Just like your car doesn't make that funny noise when you take it to the mechanic. LOL
It is not fun for the horse to crossfire, if a horse is consistently crossfiring, they do it because they can't help it and they can't help it because there is a lameness issue. Just my two cents.
Aren't projects fun?  Good luck! |
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 Expert
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Location: Texas | EPM! Or SI problem. If he can't hold leads in round pen by himself he's not going to when you ride him. I bet with a GOOD EPM treatment you would have a new horse. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| So if he was lame on the front, is he still and what are you doing for it. I don't believe in working a lame horse, as you all you get are bad habits and resentment |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | Last fall since he seemed sore I gave him about three months off from riding and being shod. My vet said that possibly being barefoot would help stimulate the frog and whatnot and help the front foot. He does seem better since I've been back to working with him the last few weeks.
He is a big guy...he's about 16 hands so I'm not sure if he's just a big uncoordinated goof or what. But I would think at this age he should have himself pretty well figured out.
Today I put my pht blanket on him in hopes that it could help him feel better if he's still sore in his back. I also have hock wraps...would he benefit from those? And what is epm?
Edited by Zanadoo88 2014-03-01 1:22 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: My own little world :) | cheryl makofka - 2014-02-28 9:26 PM
So if he was lame on the front, is he still and what are you doing for it. I don't believe in working a lame horse, as you all you get are bad habits and resentment
I think he is much better than he was. It was never anything like a very pronounced head bob or anything but if you looked really close you would notice it occasionally. He's good as long as he's not on real hard ground. As for trying to do something for him I basically have given him time off. I don't really know what to do for it. I also agree that all you get from working a lame horse are bad habits and resentment and I wonder if that's why he was so nasty with his previous owners. I just hope I can do something for him ya know? |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: My own little world :) | horsefever - 2014-02-28 8:21 PM
Ok, generally speaking a horse that just doesn't know it's leads will pick up the lead they are most comfortable with given the choice, but they will hold that lead until you stop them or they figure it out and switch. If he's picking up a lead and dropping it behind after a few strides, he has something wrong back there. It's either his stifles or hocks but it could also be SI considering you said he has had chrio for a hump in his loin. The hump could also just be over devolped muslce from compensating. If when you are riding him at a trot or a lope and he trips behind or he might also trip on a downward transition, he needs a closer look at his stifles. If he is not tripping but just consistently dropping leads behind, its most likely his hocks. That's generally speaking there is always an exception. These things don't always show up on a lameness exam because like everything else it never happens when the vet is looking. Just like your car doesn't make that funny noise when you take it to the mechanic. LOL
It is not fun for the horse to crossfire, if a horse is consistently crossfiring, they do it because they can't help it and they can't help it because there is a lameness issue. Just my two cents.
Aren't projects fun? Good luck!
What would you do for treatment for hocks and stifles? Haha yes projects are just so fun!!! Like I said he is a learning experience for me! He's just such a nice boy to handle on the ground I just don't see how he can be such a butt to ride. I just want him to be a productive happy horse someday. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Being sore up front can also make him cross fire. If he is still sore on that foot on hard ground I would have exrays done to rule out navicular. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | What kinds of treatments do you all suggest? Yesterday I put my Pht blanket on him for the first time in hope that it will help and I think I will also make sure he gets the hock wraps and bell boots each day. I don't know that I'm ready to spend tons of money on him. |
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 Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty
Posts: 20916
Location: LouLouVille, OK | What r the angles of his feet? |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Zanadoo88 - 2014-02-28 6:43 PM He really travels on the front end and can be pretty stiff. But when you get him in a circle he will really give his head and bend around...but he will sometimes swing his hind end if you don't really keep him coordinated. I haven't really had the opportunity to lope circles on him yet...its been pretty slick at my house and he can get pretty fired up sometimes so when I'm on him I just try to get the basics down at a walk and trot before we decide to move up. So he crossfires in the round pen with no one on him. He does it with and without the saddle and usually he will pick of the correct lead and then lose it in the hind end after a few strides.
My horse didn't crossfire when loping regular, but he started crossfiring in his barrel turns. He's ALWAYS been very front endy and tends to swing his butt.
My horse has a catching stifle in his right hind.
I would suggest getting a second opinion from a specialized equine lameness vet. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 582
| Zanadoo88 - 2014-03-01 1:29 AM
horsefever - 2014-02-28 8:21 PM
Ok, generally speaking a horse that just doesn't know it's leads will pick up the lead they are most comfortable with given the choice, but they will hold that lead until you stop them or they figure it out and switch. If he's picking up a lead and dropping it behind after a few strides, he has something wrong back there. It's either his stifles or hocks but it could also be SI considering you said he has had chrio for a hump in his loin. The hump could also just be over devolped muslce from compensating. If when you are riding him at a trot or a lope and he trips behind or he might also trip on a downward transition, he needs a closer look at his stifles. If he is not tripping but just consistently dropping leads behind, its most likely his hocks. That's generally speaking there is always an exception. These things don't always show up on a lameness exam because like everything else it never happens when the vet is looking. Just like your car doesn't make that funny noise when you take it to the mechanic. LOL
It is not fun for the horse to crossfire, if a horse is consistently crossfiring, they do it because they can't help it and they can't help it because there is a lameness issue. Just my two cents.
Aren't projects fun? Good luck!
What would you do for treatment for hocks and stifles? Haha yes projects are just so fun!!! Like I said he is a learning experience for me! He's just such a nice boy to handle on the ground I just don't see how he can be such a butt to ride. I just want him to be a productive happy horse someday.
The statement about a smaller frog and hard ground making him worse on the front makes me think of contracted heels. Does he have an upright and an underslung heel? Usually a horse that is hurting on the front will not be heavy on the front unless he is hurting from behind. That said a front end problem can make them drop a lead behind looking for relief. If he has an upright and an underslung, and he's sore the best thing to do is get a good trim, no shoes and keep the feet from getting too dry. I have an older horse that has an upright and underslung on the front, (he is trimmed by a fantastic farrier so he is as balanced as we can get him) but when the weather is really dry for days and the ground gets hard he will get a little gimpy on the front.
If it's in his hind, the best thing to do for stifles (imho) is skip the internal blister and just get the tendon split. The internal blister usually has to be repeated and the effectiveness is debatable. If it's hocks he needs injections and at his age it would most likely be a maintenance item. I've tried different supplements and some work ok but the most effective for the money is just injections.
Someone mentioned EPM, because he won't hold his leads in the round pen. You asked what is EPM? Equine Protezoal Myeloencephalitis, it is caused by an ingested protezoa attacking the central nervous system. The symptoms vary greatly depending on where the protezoa are attacking the spinal cord. Search on the board for EPM and you will find a ton of discussion about it. There's lots of information on the web about it.
Personally I love a good project :) I prefer training issues over lameness issues but often they go hand in hand. |
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