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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
   
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | My mind just started thinking since I'm stuck on the couch. But after a short conversation with some strangers on facebook, I am very very curious.
One of those people jumped in on a conversation I was having with someone else about bleeder meds. She told me symptoms her horse was having but was 100 percent sure he was not a bleeder because he had never bled from his nose.
Here's my question....
Does everybody know the symptoms of a bleeder? Signs to look for? Red flags to tell you that you may want to have your horse checked?
Can we post on here our experiences and what we feel our horses signs were so that maybe some people can learn?
I was very concerned to find that people still think that just because they can't see the blood means their horse is not bleeding. When in fact they could be, and an untreated bleeder can lead to very bad things, including death :(. I did talk to this person and one other and suggested they talk to their vets and possibly get their horses looked at.
My horse had been competing for two years with no isses. I always thought he was never giving 100 percent even when he was clocking 1D. In 2013, march, he pulled 2D checks all weekend against 500 plus horses. One week later he eas 3rd in the 1D out of 120 horses. Two weeks after that he barely ran in the 2D. He ran a 15.2 in a pen he normally runs 14.2-14.6 in. After his second run he never caught his breath, looked like he wanted to just drop over dead, and refused to drink water. By the time the vet got there it was too late to scope.
So we took him in a few days later for a BAL and Trach wash to find out he bled really really bad. We just have no way of knowing for how long or exactly when.
Treated him etc etc. He is now back to clocking high in the 1D (when his rider isn't on the couch recovering from surgery :))
I just wanted to put this out there in the hopes someone may read it and learn. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I've never had a bleeder so I would have zero idea what to look for.
Looking foward to everyone's stories! |
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | My thoughts, they may be wrong, but for the horses in my care this is what I watch for....
First, this may come from riding racehorses, but I have always timed how long it takes for my horses to catch their breath after a run. I start as soon as I come out (and always have to ask hubby for the time since I don't wear a watch). I count the time until they stop blowing hard, then the time they are breathing normal again. I also track how much water they drink and how soon. So if I ever notice any huge or abnormal variations in this with each horse it throws up a huge red flag. This is one way I caught it with my good horse.
I also think a horse who coughs only after a workout is a red flag. And horses who "drag" their head after a run. Meaning ones who wants to keep his head really low to the ground. Again, symptoms my horse had before we diagnosed him, but signs I did not red flag.
My vet also told me that one sign of bleeding can be refusal to drink water after a run. Of course this will vary as every horse is different. But he said bleeding can cause horses to not want to drink. I did notice this was the case with my horse, but of course did not catch it until after the diagnosis. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Mine never coughed, never bled outwardly, never sneezed blood, never refused the gate, he just started getting a wide 3rd barrel, no fire running home, just started slowing down was 1D, then 2D and then finally bottom 2D/top 3D. I attributed it to my daughter riding him as she started riding him when the decline happened. Well finally I tried lasix on him and from 1 run to the next he gained his 1 second back with her in the saddle. I did not have him scoped - I did not need to. I took him home, gave treatment and laid him off - we brought him back and have had no issues - he runs on lasix every run and is turning the 3rd nice. |
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 Dr. Ruth
Posts: 9891
Location: Blissfully happy Giants fan!!! | Isn't it something like 90% of all race horses are bleeders? Anyways, I have a respiratory specialist that all he does is look at horse's lungs. He said more non-race horses bleed than most people think. In fact, you have a much higher likelihood of your horse having some sort of respiratory issue than one may think.
Grasshopper has a condition that had stumped my respiratory vet. He said he had never seen anything like it. Basically, he is a reverse roarer. I have talked about it before but I am going to talk about something else. He wasn't catching his breathe at one point and he bled out. Turned out, everyone that has seen this horse believes it was from a lack of keeping his neck aligned. Hops has some serious neck issues. I still pay for him to get chiro and acupunture done regularly and he does nothing really.
He went on interval training and that helps with roarers and bleeders. All of my horses are on interval training. My resp. vet said it is actually beneficial for horses like barrel horses because they only need wind capacity for less than 20 seconds. So you don't need marathon lungs you need sprinters lungs.
But keeping their necks adjusted is now critical for me. I watch how easy it is for them to come down off of something hard, and I pay attention to coughing and other movements.
Interestingly, Mystic doesn't bleed but she is easily suscetible to infection in her glutteral pouch/lungs. Her tell tale is her wind and her coat. She bleaches like all get out when she isn't feeling good. She got sick and is starting a round of hard core antibiotics today. hopefully she doesn't have to go in for flushes.
Anyways, those are my experiences. Just because I have gotten to spend a lot of time with a respiratory specialist I am always on the look out. I am also very well aware of things that trigger horses breathing to change. Weather is obviously one of them. But seasons, what is in the air, where they are at, etc all play a part too. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | You brought up very good points. Many, many bleeders do not bleed out. Often times I notice a stride change in horses that are just not able to produce all out due to the hypoxia that is occuring. Also, when I was a crack groom I would notice the hair coat change. Many will get a low grade fever and just look "off". I've had a few horses that would cough after a race rush them to a vet and discover NO Blood. Several times it was suggested to me to clear them with a flush prior to bitting and running them. If they have hay particles in the throat they may need to "hack" those away from the airways.
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | sassy&tessa - 2014-03-10 2:51 PM Isn't it something like 90% of all race horses are bleeders? Anyways, I have a respiratory specialist that all he does is look at horse's lungs. He said more non-race horses bleed than most people think. In fact, you have a much higher likelihood of your horse having some sort of respiratory issue than one may think.
Grasshopper has a condition that had stumped my respiratory vet. He said he had never seen anything like it. Basically, he is a reverse roarer. I have talked about it before but I am going to talk about something else. He wasn't catching his breathe at one point and he bled out. Turned out, everyone that has seen this horse believes it was from a lack of keeping his neck aligned. Hops has some serious neck issues. I still pay for him to get chiro and acupunture done regularly and he does nothing really.
He went on interval training and that helps with roarers and bleeders. All of my horses are on interval training. My resp. vet said it is actually beneficial for horses like barrel horses because they only need wind capacity for less than 20 seconds. So you don't need marathon lungs you need sprinters lungs.
But keeping their necks adjusted is now critical for me. I watch how easy it is for them to come down off of something hard, and I pay attention to coughing and other movements.
Interestingly, Mystic doesn't bleed but she is easily suscetible to infection in her glutteral pouch/lungs. Her tell tale is her wind and her coat. She bleaches like all get out when she isn't feeling good. She got sick and is starting a round of hard core antibiotics today. hopefully she doesn't have to go in for flushes.
Anyways, those are my experiences. Just because I have gotten to spend a lot of time with a respiratory specialist I am always on the look out. I am also very well aware of things that trigger horses breathing to change. Weather is obviously one of them. But seasons, what is in the air, where they are at, etc all play a part too.
What is your interval training regimen? |
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | sassy&tessa - 2014-03-10 3:51 PM Isn't it something like 90% of all race horses are bleeders? Anyways, I have a respiratory specialist that all he does is look at horse's lungs. He said more non-race horses bleed than most people think. In fact, you have a much higher likelihood of your horse having some sort of respiratory issue than one may think.
Grasshopper has a condition that had stumped my respiratory vet. He said he had never seen anything like it. Basically, he is a reverse roarer. I have talked about it before but I am going to talk about something else. He wasn't catching his breathe at one point and he bled out. Turned out, everyone that has seen this horse believes it was from a lack of keeping his neck aligned. Hops has some serious neck issues. I still pay for him to get chiro and acupunture done regularly and he does nothing really.
He went on interval training and that helps with roarers and bleeders. All of my horses are on interval training. My resp. vet said it is actually beneficial for horses like barrel horses because they only need wind capacity for less than 20 seconds. So you don't need marathon lungs you need sprinters lungs.
But keeping their necks adjusted is now critical for me. I watch how easy it is for them to come down off of something hard, and I pay attention to coughing and other movements.
Interestingly, Mystic doesn't bleed but she is easily suscetible to infection in her glutteral pouch/lungs. Her tell tale is her wind and her coat. She bleaches like all get out when she isn't feeling good. She got sick and is starting a round of hard core antibiotics today. hopefully she doesn't have to go in for flushes.
Anyways, those are my experiences. Just because I have gotten to spend a lot of time with a respiratory specialist I am always on the look out. I am also very well aware of things that trigger horses breathing to change. Weather is obviously one of them. But seasons, what is in the air, where they are at, etc all play a part too.
I don't know what the actual precentage is, but I do think some people would be surprised at how many horses do bleed. I honestly think some can bleed only a very small amount and acutally be ok. Others not so. I know of a top notch 1D record winner that almost died from it a few years back. He had been bleeding but no outward signs of it. He ended up getting really sick from the infection in his lungs and they didn't know if he was going to make it. Thank God he did.
Same thing happened to my horse. The only difference being is that when we did the trach wash and BAL he was already on the upside of healing. Probably because I had run him three times at the shamrock, once the following weekend, then actually gave him a three week break with only light riding going into Dixie Nationals which is where we found out he bled. |
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | uno-dos-tres! - 2014-03-10 3:55 PM You brought up very good points. Many, many bleeders do not bleed out. Often times I notice a stride change in horses that are just not able to produce all out due to the hypoxia that is occuring. Also, when I was a crack groom I would notice the hair coat change. Many will get a low grade fever and just look "off". I've had a few horses that would cough after a race rush them to a vet and discover NO Blood. Several times it was suggested to me to clear them with a flush prior to bitting and running them. If they have hay particles in the throat they may need to "hack" those away from the airways.
This is why we are having a very hard time figuring out just how long my horse was bleeding. He had always been a horrible keeper. Always looked a little rough, very hard to keep weight on. But he was performing well. At the Presidents Cup 2012 he was a 2D check winner both runs out of over 400 riders, and at the Shamrock he again was a 2D check winner out of over 500 plus.
Now, a year later, after being diagnosed and treated, he remains on OTC bleeder meds and has never looked better. Of course change in climate (GA to MO) and changes in feed (forage mostly) are playing a big role as well. But he's running better then ever now. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I have a bleeder. He has bled out his nose, the most he ever bled out was a trickle you could wipe away with a kleenex. No symptoms at all, no coughing, no undesirable behavior in the arena, no refusing the gate. He had 2 runs in one day for high school rodeo, several hours apart. The first time he bled through his nostril was on his second run and he won first with that run. Had him scoped the next morning, about 12 hours after his last run and vet said evidence that he had been bleeding on other runs. He now gets 2 cc's of lasix IM 2 hours out and does not bleed. I have him scoped every 8 months or so to check for any signs of bleeding ar lung damage. Every vet I have talked to says at least 80% of horses bleed, it is just a matter of what degree. He considers my guy very mild. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | I hope the OP doesn't mind me putting this out: WARM UP areas that are dusty to the point that you see the dust or you can smell it are very bad on your horse. Those small particles can contribute to your horses respiratory stress in a huge way.
Knowing your horses VS (vital signs) are pretty important to making correct assumptions that something is amiss with the animal.
I too, train in intervals. Once I have my LSD training done I switch to interval. Once the season gets going if I'm not going to run for the week I will work my horse at 200 yards hard.
I have a cardiology stethoscope that I use to listen but most important is what I see.
I BELIEVE, the reason a horse won't drink as normal after they bleed is because of the burn of the acidic blood in the gut. I will offer them some alfalfa then they will often drink post the Ca on the stomach.
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | uno-dos-tres! - 2014-03-10 4:27 PM I hope the OP doesn't mind me putting this out: WARM UP areas that are dusty to the point that you see the dust or you can smell it are very bad on your horse. Those small particles can contribute to your horses respiratory stress in a huge way.
Knowing your horses VS (vital signs) are pretty important to making correct assumptions that something is amiss with the animal.
I too, train in intervals. Once I have my LSD training done I switch to interval. Once the season gets going if I'm not going to run for the week I will work my horse at 200 yards hard.
I have a cardiology stethoscope that I use to listen but most important is what I see.
I BELIEVE, the reason a horse won't drink as normal after they bleed is because of the burn of the acidic blood in the gut. I will offer them some alfalfa then they will often drink post the Ca on the stomach.
Your last sentence, as to why a horse may not drink after bleeding, is exactly what my vet said!
And I'm looking for people to post any and all information!!!! |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| uno-dos-tres! - 2014-03-10 3:27 PM I hope the OP doesn't mind me putting this out: WARM UP areas that are dusty to the point that you see the dust or you can smell it are very bad on your horse. Those small particles can contribute to your horses respiratory stress in a huge way.
Knowing your horses VS (vital signs) are pretty important to making correct assumptions that something is amiss with the animal.
I too, train in intervals. Once I have my LSD training done I switch to interval. Once the season gets going if I'm not going to run for the week I will work my horse at 200 yards hard.
I have a cardiology stethoscope that I use to listen but most important is what I see.
I BELIEVE, the reason a horse won't drink as normal after they bleed is because of the burn of the acidic blood in the gut. I will offer them some alfalfa then they will often drink post the Ca on the stomach.
Great post!! |
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 Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | I'm glad I did a search before creating a new post for this.
I am having an issue with my mare now that finished our 2012 season running top of the 1D, starting the 2013 first run back great, but bled visibly after. I gave her time off and antibiotics and hoped it was just an flaw from that particular day and started running her again ( I know, I'm naive and just didnt want to do lasix). Our times declined, from one thing to the next we were having issues during our runs, etc. I tried lasix towards the end of the season, she did not urinate after I gave it to her and one of the times she just constantly was dribbling. I gave her the winter off and have been legging her back up acouple months now. Ran her 2 weeks ago for the first time, wide third barrel. Ran her this passed Saturday, did not want to give her nose AT ALL at third barrel. Goes in the arena, great first and second, went into third great, but as soon as I asked for her to finish the turn she stuck her nose up and shot out and then ran home.
Another symptom I am seeing is she looses her appetite for a day or two after a race. Just picks at her feed. And no, she does not generally drink after a run either.
I am back to thinking she is actually still bleeding within and thats why she's fighting the run home. I plan to give her time off from competing, and antibiotics. But would it be a good idea to give her the lasix a few times at the house first so she gets a feel for it? I know she use to get it (she is off the track). But would it maybe help her just get reminded of the feel and accept it a little better at the races?
Sorry if this all sounds like a big ramble.
Edited by Three*C*Champs 2014-03-17 11:53 AM
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| I have a horse who coughs 2 or 3 big coughs about 2 minutes after you start trotting. He then snorts (the kind that they love to blow snot in your face snort) and never coughs again. Could this be bleeding or is he just clearing his pipes? |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Nateracer - 2014-03-17 12:05 PM I have a horse who coughs 2 or 3 big coughs about 2 minutes after you start trotting. He then snorts (the kind that they love to blow snot in your face snort) and never coughs again. Could this be bleeding or is he just clearing his pipes?
My old gelding does the cough too. He's had some respiratory issues in the past and I'm really careful with him, but he's never shown me any of the classic bleeder signs so I've never had him scoped. It's just one of those things I really watch for with him. If he bleeds and I have to lasix him before every run, he will be retired for my safety (he is deathly afraid of needles) and his sanity. lol. |
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 It's not my fault I'm perfect
Posts: 13739
Location: Where the long tails flow, ND | I thought my mare was a bleeder but turns out she has allergies, 30 of them actually. So make sure you get your horses scoped and cheek things at first sign! So many people brush things off until they are way worse |
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It's not my fault I'm perfect
Posts: 13739
Location: Where the long tails flow, ND | Nateracer - 2014-03-17 12:05 PM I have a horse who coughs 2 or 3 big coughs about 2 minutes after you start trotting. He then snorts (the kind that they love to blow snot in your face snort) and never coughs again. Could this be bleeding or is he just clearing his pipes?
Check for allergies! |
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Veteran
Posts: 173
Location: oklahoma | Nateracer - 2014-03-17 12:05 PM
I have a horse who coughs 2 or 3 big coughs about 2 minutes after you start trotting. He then snorts (the kind that they love to blow snot in your face snort) and never coughs again. Could this be bleeding or is he just clearing his pipes?
I had a horse that would cough and sneeze for the first few minutes of warm up, then stop. This went from the time I got him at 2 years old till he was 6 years old. I finished a run at the Shoot out, cooled him down and had Dr. Ford scope him. His throat was almost completely closed off. Had an allergy panel ran and he was allergic to 24 different things. I put him on allergy shots from the Serum Company and he never coughed or sneezed again after that.
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | My guy used to cough in the first few minutes of warming up as well. He was diagnosed with a "restricted" airway several years ago. When he started the coughing and making noises while loping, I had him scoped to check for issues. He wasn't bleeding at that point, but just has a smaller then normal airway.
Since he's been on bleeder meds he hasn't been coughing before or after :) |
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