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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
 
| Ok.. I'm not sure how to even explain this without writing a book .. But here it goes ! I have a 7 yr old mare that I bought a 6 months ago .. She is a 1 d horse when things go right .. But she isn't broke worth a darn .. Doesn't know a whole lot of anything .. She'll break at the poll but when you ask her to she throws her head in to release to the pressure but wants to take it back immediately .. It's obnoxious & not the suppleness I'm looking for .. She didn't even back up when I bought her .. But I have her backing now . She counter arch really good to the left but is terrible to the right .. She'll lope circles to the right with her nose tucked in & arches a bit. To the left she wants to run sideways when I ask for the same thing .. She just starts to throw her nose towards the pressure but wants it back right away.. When I use leg she wants to run away from it vs relaxing & figuring it out.. She's extremely hot & psycho when you ask her things .. I believe bc she doesn't know what I want so she just freaks out instead of thinking . She doesn't have a great whoah either.. So I understand she has no foundation whatsoever . So any advise on where to even start with a horse like this ? She swings her rear around everywhere instead of keeping her hindquarters underneath her .. I have gotten her to pivot on her hindquarters some, but I just feel like I'm making no progress with this horse .. I just want a more broke horse I can actually control. So what are the main steps to collection ? She will flex vertically all day long .. But that's about all the can so right without getting psychotic . I'm just getting so frustrated :( she's been shouldering her 2 nd & 3 rd barrel & blowing off her 3 rd.. I just feel like everything is going downhill .. Which with such a lack of foundation I figured it'd catch up to me . I have a 3 yr old twice as broke as she is, but she has been started right . This horse hasn't . Any advise would be so appreciated !! Thanks ! |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
  
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | The Rider's Guide to Real Collection
Achieve Willingness, Balance, and the Perfect Frame with Performance Horses by Lynn Palm
This is the best book out there about collection no matter what discipline you ride.
http://www.horseandriderbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=H&Scr...
Edited by Delta Cowgirl 2014-03-16 5:58 PM
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Regular
Posts: 56
| I'm interested in this also. It is very frustrating when you've seen a horse run awesome then find out there's not much foundation. Like you any and all suggestions are appreciated . Good luck to you. I know the end results will be well worth it but it's just the getting there. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | you cant achieve true collection until you have a good solid foundation on the horse.. it doesnt sound like you do yet.
go back to basics and slow work .. relaxation .. collection isnt for control of a horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Yes, I'd love to get advice.. Especially from anyone that's dealt with a similar horse . I know the horse has so much talent & like you said it'll be worth the trouble .. I always think if she's winning the 1 d now , I can't imagine how good she'd be with a foundation on her. I thought about sending her to a reining trainer to get a handle on her . I'd love to save money & do it myself , but I'm not sure I can :/ I have my 3 yr old very light in the face .. She's about riding around collected in just 2 weeks ! But like I said , she's been started correctly & is as quiet as they come .. So it sure makes life easier . |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | For true collection, you have to have forward movement & lightness firmly in place first.
At this point however, I would not even think about collection because she needs to have the rest of her foundation built first. You can't shorten her stride and collect her up if she's not giving through her body & face and if she's not balanced.
I would break it down and work on the individual parts of the foundation one at a time --- Getting light control of the body parts individually and then together, getting lightness through the face, then work on bend and balance and consistency of speed, then work on lengthening and eventually shortening of stride.
Aside from pain, lack of balance will cause one to rush or speed up and it'll also cause them to stiffen or fall out of a circle. They're trying to do whatever it takes to get back to a point where they feel balanced. If they're struggling to get bent through their ribcage, it's going to be hard for them to balance on a circle and lope it nicely like it needs to be. By the same token, if they're not soft through their face and are fighting you, they're not going to focus on being balanced
I would go back and break it all down piece by piece. Start out at a walk and get good at walking a perfect circle with a good bend through the rib cage. Then work on making that circle bigger and smaller and getting to where you can do that perfectly.
Once she was doing everything perfect at a walk, then I'd try a couple of strides of trot -- just like we can't hold a plank right off the bat for 10 minutes because we don't have the strength, they don't have the strength to hold themselves on a circle for very long either. Ask for just a few strides at a time and then release. Don't ask for a canter until she's proficient at the trot for a long period of time and then use the same principal -- a few strides and then release.
Remember too that riding is about give and release. Ask for what you need, then release the pressure. Do things in short sessions and they'll get less frustrated.
Another thing that will help with balance is a lot of up and down transitions.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| You need to take baby steps, treat her like a colt.
When trail riding, I will at a walk sit deep in the saddle say whoa then pick up the reins and back her up to where I sit down.
I will also work on yielding to leg out on the trail. Out of an arena you may have better luck as she may not associate run.
I pick one thing I want to work on that day and if it takes me 5 min, Im done, if it takes 2 hours so be it.
With the head tucking, I put my hands by my knees to get them responding I will hold their head for a second the first time then let them relax for awhile then hold it for 2 seconds, ect. After they respond by my knees I will gradually move my hands up and get them to respond.
This horse will be harder to work with then a colt, as the bad habits have already form.
Take one thing and work on that until it is perfected, don't pick at the horse on anything else except that task, as it will be overwhelming. Work every day on the task once she gets it end the lesson, when she is retaining the info for a week, then work on something else.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Ok , forget I said collection lol I do understand she's no where near collecting .. I should rephrase it as what do I do to even get a foundation started ? I will do what you said :) start everything at a walk . You are exactly right .. When she gets off balance she speeds up.. And throws herself everywhere.. Switches leads .. Cross fires , crow hops etc.. I just need her to relax & not be so spastic all the time . |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Also , what can you do to get them bending at the ribcage? I feel alot of times she's flexing with her neck but not her ribcage.. Can anyone give me a list of things to work on ? So I know what I'm wanting every ride I take ? Sometimes I'm not sure where to even start or what to work on that day .. And I know that's important . So what do you all think I should start with ? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Fancy Lass - 2014-03-16 6:28 PM
Also , what can you do to get them bending at the ribcage? I feel alot of times she's flexing with her neck but not her ribcage.. Can anyone give me a list of things to work on ? So I know what I'm wanting every ride I take ? Sometimes I'm not sure where to even start or what to work on that day .. And I know that's important . So what do you all think I should start with ?
I work on my circles out of the arena, I start by picking up the inside rein, applying pressure on the inside ribcage, moving the outside leg back and ask the horse to turn.
I keep working on it till they have mastered big and small circles at a walk. The outside rein I use to just support the body. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Ok , I have done the circles with her & my young horse . The young horse does great , but she's quieter . This horse does it but not great. I will keep working on that with her :) I also have a bad habit of crossing over the neck to counterarch .. I know you aren't suppose to to that !! Where does everyone put you hand when you side pass or counterarch ? At your pocket / hip? |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | You've got a lot to work on and it sounds like this is new territory for you. If you could get lessons with a trainer that would help tremendously.
As far as bending through the rib cage, they first have to learn to move away from pressure in their body and proficient at it. They also need to give through their face and still be able to move forward.
Basic cues for bending are more weight to the inside, leg at girth, inside rein tipping nose in. Outside leg just behind the girth to keep them moving forward and support that hip from swinging out. Outside rein just supporting to keep them from drifting too much. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Fancy Lass - 2014-03-16 6:43 PM Ok , I have done the circles with her & my young horse . The young horse does great , but she's quieter . This horse does it but not great. I will keep working on that with her :) I also have a bad habit of crossing over the neck to counterarch .. I know you aren't suppose to to that !! Where does everyone put you hand when you side pass or counterarch ? At your pocket / hip?
I shorten my indirect rein and pull back with give & take pressure. I never cross over.
I do a lot of ground work to help get them proficient at indirect rein stuff. I do the same thing under saddle as I did on the ground to get them to move over. I support with leg and seat. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| It's not really new territory to me . I followed the 5 steps to collection from google .. From Clinton Anderson . Shows you how to get every part of their body working . I have taught my 3 yr old perfectly .. I just guess nobody understands what kind of horse I'm dealing with . Some of you do . It's not just teacing.. It's trying to break bad habits , which is the hardest thing to ever do . I am getting her better but not good by any means . She's extremely stupid with her head .. But she's not like a normal horse where give & release works very well .. Bc she never comes around . It took one week for my 3 yr old to be light in the bridal .. But the horse .. Is a whole different story . I've never seen a horse act like this one does ..was hoping someone has had similar experiences. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Fancy Lass - 2014-03-16 7:19 PM It's not really new territory to me . I followed the 5 steps to collection from google .. From Clinton Anderson . Shows you how to get every part of their body working . I have taught my 3 yr old perfectly .. I just guess nobody understands what kind of horse I'm dealing with . Some of you do . It's not just teacing.. It's trying to break bad habits , which is the hardest thing to ever do . I am getting her better but not good by any means . She's extremely stupid with her head .. But she's not like a normal horse where give & release works very well .. Bc she never comes around . It took one week for my 3 yr old to be light in the bridal .. But the horse .. Is a whole different story . I've never seen a horse act like this one does ..was hoping someone has had similar experiences.
Horses like this when they start to blow, it's best just to remain still and hold what you have and don't ask for any more and definitely don't tense with your body. You can't fight them or make them come around. You have to set it up and let them come to that same conclusion and be really calm during the whole process. The shorter the request, the better. Break it down as small as possible and build on that and be calm through it.
Also, pay attention to your cues and how you're cueing. A lot of times horses like this don't require as much leg or as much rein and if you ask with more than what they're comfortable with, it's too much and they over react. Horses like that tend to actually be extremely light and riding them heavier can get you in trouble. |
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| I had the exact experience last year with a 5 yo mare....well started on the pattern but no foundation.....hot and nervous. I went back to lots of ground work like I was starting a colt. And I'm a Clinton junky, used all his groundwork etc with this mare.
As someone mentioned, balance is important. If she can't balance on a lunge line, she can't balance with you on her back. If she lunges around hot and cross firing then she will do it under saddle.
The thing about Clinton is you can't skip steps. If you googled his steps to collection, you should understand that there is even a foundation to those steps......it's his groundwork. And it's even more difficult when the horse has bad habits, rather than a nice clean slate like a colt.
I've made a lot a progress with my mare but it took me two months of riding and doing groundwork nearly every day of the week. She still has some inner demons that come out on occasion but she is soooooo much better than when I got her.
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Fancy Lass - 2014-03-16 7:19 PM It's not really new territory to me . I followed the 5 steps to collection from google .. From Clinton Anderson . Shows you how to get every part of their body working . I have taught my 3 yr old perfectly .. I just guess nobody understands what kind of horse I'm dealing with . Some of you do . It's not just teacing.. It's trying to break bad habits , which is the hardest thing to ever do . I am getting her better but not good by any means . She's extremely stupid with her head .. But she's not like a normal horse where give & release works very well .. Bc she never comes around . It took one week for my 3 yr old to be light in the bridal .. But the horse .. Is a whole different story . I've never seen a horse act like this one does ..was hoping someone has had similar experiences.
I understand because I've got one. She couldn't walk a correct circle of any size when I got her and would get mad and blow at the drop of a hat. Lots and lots of hours of quiet riding, asking for baby steps and rewarding the smallest progress. I thought at first I would have her running by fall, but it took longer than I expected to get her right. When I say quiet, I mean lots of walking and trotting with me being very subtle with my aids, but keeping her feet moving and her mind busy. The obstacle course and riding in the woods were our best friends. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Thanks guys :) lots of good advice ! She is very light .. Doesn't like to be handled much .. But sometimes it's just attitude too .. She's stubborn sometimes bc I know she got away with it before , so she doesn't understand why she can't now .. So a very long road ahead of us unfortunately :( |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Three 4 Luck - 2014-03-16 7:56 PM Fancy Lass - 2014-03-16 7:19 PM It's not really new territory to me . I followed the 5 steps to collection from google .. From Clinton Anderson . Shows you how to get every part of their body working . I have taught my 3 yr old perfectly .. I just guess nobody understands what kind of horse I'm dealing with . Some of you do . It's not just teacing.. It's trying to break bad habits , which is the hardest thing to ever do . I am getting her better but not good by any means . She's extremely stupid with her head .. But she's not like a normal horse where give & release works very well .. Bc she never comes around . It took one week for my 3 yr old to be light in the bridal .. But the horse .. Is a whole different story . I've never seen a horse act like this one does ..was hoping someone has had similar experiences. I understand because I've got one. She couldn't walk a correct circle of any size when I got her and would get mad and blow at the drop of a hat. Lots and lots of hours of quiet riding, asking for baby steps and rewarding the smallest progress. I thought at first I would have her running by fall, but it took longer than I expected to get her right. When I say quiet, I mean lots of walking and trotting with me being very subtle with my aids, but keeping her feet moving and her mind busy. The obstacle course and riding in the woods were our best friends.
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | I had a similar experience. My gelding was four when I got him and he was already running some pretty fast times. He just had too much speed put on him too soon. I felt the same exact way you do. All I can say is, you're going to have to lower your expectations WAY down. Like you might be asking too much for your horse to counter arc before she knows how to respond when you ask for her face and hip, etc. Like someone else said, baby steps! And since she's already learned a response under pressure, you are re-training her brain. You will be sick of the baby steps. I had the best results sending mine to a reining trainer for four months. Mine learned easily, I just couldn't ride every day because of the weather here and my work schedule. The trainer got more done in the time he had him than I could have done in a year. He needed every day reinforcement of the basic lessons. He is much better now. At the end of last year, he was consistently loping a smooth, correct pattern and ready to speed up. I was so excited for this year... then I got pregnant. So, I will either sell him or send him back to the trainer for a few months before I get back on him next year.
My mare was a started reining horse when I got her. She excelled way faster than my gelding. But, I know he's sitting on some blazing speed. I wanted a horse that would be running well into his later years, so I chose to slow him down and put the foundation on him he would need to keep sound and sane. Good luck. All very good advice in this thread. It will be a slow process, but worth it! |
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