|
|
 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
   
Location: Kansas | This was Chance's first run back after SI injections (injections done March 31st, this run was April 11th) and I can't decide if I think he is still sore or just thinks he's still sore. Opinions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY06SQOxX4Y&list=UU3h0VmyuYbqBRUor4JBQVlA
I had him vet checked last Friday and nothing is showing up other than some slight soreness in the right front foot, so I'm going to swap him back to the right next time we run. I can tell that he feels better after the SI injections, but I'm not entirely sure that we don't have something else still bothering him. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Do you have any videos early on in his career?
I say yes he is still sore on the back right leg as he is still coming out of his second and third barrel on the left back lead.
If he is still sore on the front right, what is the diagnosis and prognosis? |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-04-21 3:17 PM
Do you have any videos early on in his career?
I say yes he is still sore on the back right leg as he is still coming out of his second and third barrel on the left back lead.
If he is still sore on the front right, what is the diagnosis and prognosis?
My youtube channel has hundreds of his videos from as far back as 2006.
The foot soreness is like a 1/5 and its improved significantly with the Equipack pour-in pads, so we're going to do that again tomorrow when he gets reset. The foot soreness seems to be a byproduct of the hind end soreness so I'm hoping that fixing the SI and anything else necessary will take care of the feet as well because he won't be compensating and putting more stress on his front feet. |
|
| |
|
 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | To me, he came in looking to run to the right. His stride was also very short from the normal videos you post.
I think there is still something in the front sore.. He will have to get used to using himself correctly again. You will have to make him do it right for a couple weeks. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | clover girl - 2014-04-21 4:13 PM To me, he came in looking to run to the right. His stride was also very short from the normal videos you post.
I think there is still something in the front sore.. He will have to get used to using himself correctly again. You will have to make him do it right for a couple weeks.
Funny you say he was looking right because the next morning he switched to the right lead as we went in the alley and we proceeded to look really stupid with me committed to going left and him running down the middle of the pen on the right lead. Let's just say I won't be posting that video publicly. Sunday in the bonus round, I had to micromanage everything he did which was beyond frustrating. I never felt like I could turn loose and hustle because he was not being honest. Can't tell if he was just ****ed about the change in the weather (it dropped 30 degrees from Saturday night to Sunday and poured 3 inches between 8 and 11 a.m.) and having to stand in a stall for a couple hours before we ran. I do know he was in a rotten mood from the time I put him in a stall until I got him home.
He will have to get used to using himself correctly again. You will have to make him do it right for a couple weeks.
This is my dilemma - Is he just getting used to NOT being sore or is he still sore? I don't want to put any more runs on him if he's still sore, but how do I figure that out other than by running him? He feels a lot more fluid and smoother when I ride at home, but I don't know if he's as fluid and smooth as he can be. |
|
| |
|
The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | He will have to get used to using himself correctly again. You will have to make him do it right for a couple weeks.
This is my dilemma - Is he just getting used to NOT being sore or is he still sore? I don't want to put any more runs on him if he's still sore, but how do I figure that out other than by running him? He feels a lot more fluid and smoother when I ride at home, but I don't know if he's as fluid and smooth as he can be
From my experience, after one has run in pain for any amount of time, you have to force them to make the move correctly off the pattern. Really ask him to collect up and turn on his hind end slow. I usually breezed mine down the arena and asked them to turn (after I showed them at a slower speed it wouldn't hurt). After a week of tuning, then take him and make a run.
I do agree that he looks like something is still off in the front. Does he feel liek he is reaching out when you warm him up? Can you ask him to reach out more with the front feet at a trot?
Edited by clover girl 2014-04-21 4:38 PM
|
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | clover girl - 2014-04-21 4:37 PM He will have to get used to using himself correctly again. You will have to make him do it right for a couple weeks.
This is my dilemma - Is he just getting used to NOT being sore or is he still sore? I don't want to put any more runs on him if he's still sore, but how do I figure that out other than by running him? He feels a lot more fluid and smoother when I ride at home, but I don't know if he's as fluid and smooth as he can be
From my experience, after one has run in pain for any amount of time, you have to force them to make the move correctly off the pattern. Really ask him to collect up and turn on his hind end slow. I usually breezed mine down the arena and asked them to turn (after I showed them at a slower speed it wouldn't hurt). After a week of tuning, then take him and make a run.
I do agree that he looks like something is still off in the front. Does he feel liek he is reaching out when you warm him up? Can you ask him to reach out more with the front feet at a trot?
I don't know how he was moving when we warmed up at Lincoln. That third day he was wound for sound and I actually had to leave the warmup barn because he was growling and trying to run off. I'm not quite sure how to make him reach out more with the front feet at a trot. Care to explain how you'd go about that? |
|
| |
|
The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | Honestly I don't know how to make a horse do it. I can usually get it done when I am riding, but I can't explain how to do it. You want to get them in an extended trot. It really makes them work every muscle. That is how I can tell if one is hurting in there feet, they don't want to put that much pressure out there.
This video shows the difference at the beginning. You want him to reach with those front feet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0SSO_QQ_Q |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | clover girl - 2014-04-21 4:54 PM Honestly I don't know how to make a horse do it. I can usually get it done when I am riding, but I can't explain how to do it. You want to get them in an extended trot. It really makes them work every muscle. That is how I can tell if one is hurting in there feet, they don't want to put that much pressure out there.
This video shows the difference at the beginning. You want him to reach with those front feet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0SSO_QQ_Q
Ok I can get him into an extended trot, I think. If nothing else, I can take him to town and throw out the saddle club's ground poles to give him a visual and make him reach to get over each log. |
|
| |
|
 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet.  |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | dianeguinn - 2014-04-21 5:28 PM He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet.
I wish I had another close vet that worked on horses at all. It's going to be next Wednesday before I can take him anywhere else because all the other horse vets are 2+ hours away so I figured it was best to start with the vet 30 miles away and then do a bigger trip if needed. At the rate I'm going, I'm never going to be able to run Chance this year.  |
|
| |
|
 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | Get someone who knows what they are doing to check his whorlbones, its actually a bursa. In my experience if they have had back end issues for any amount of time they will be sore there too.
Also, anytime we get a sore horse in to rehab we usually condition them for a good two months or more before asking them to perform again. That is after we have fixed whatever needs to be fixed. We may breeze them during that time just to insure we have covered all our bases but it takes time to work the residual soreness out and get them moving correctly again.
Not what you want to hear but trust me, waiting til they are really right is much easier in the long run than wasting runs on your horse and beating your head against the wall. Don't ask me how I know that, lol. |
|
| |
|
Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| My gelding wich about a month ago had hock fusion surgery on both hocks he was nubbing his rear toes and not running and balking at the gate at the colional nation horse show i bought some oxymax joint suppliment and had him on previcox the whole week before, when i carried him several days later to,the vet that helpped him not to be so sore. the vet flexed, flexed and lunged and troted he really didnot show that sore went to another show 3weeks latter horse was more sore carried to another vet he thermoscaned and only one hock show hot so that vet didnot xray but one hock he also,showed sore in his heels and the vet i carried him back to tested him no soreness she said and i believe he was trying to get off his rear. So i called one vet who,got it wrong and she told me not to give him one once of anything bring him on she spent and had another vet with her the whole time to flex every joint on the front feet and back legs see what we see. Well good news both lower hocks where onlymthing she could see. We did surgery and he is not his feet are long reaching and overstepping and hitting his front feet. I will get to ride him in 12 days. He already looks better when i let him out he just looks more confortable. Only thing he has been sore for,so long, i dont know jntil i start riding him what else he could be hiding that is sore. I have spent tons of money and he must have a high pain theshold, he just would not run hard, injected him and he did not improve, started balking at the gate and sometimes he would take me away from the arena just would turn around, but when he did that could lead him in the alley and he is 16 hands and i have bad knees, i could drop the rein on his neck get on him and cluck to him and he would run. When i think about it, he really could have hurt me or run off. He had beautiful barrels. Made me think a lot of the horse. He kinda earned his place for life, the the vet that said his suspories, before the surgery had his suspensories ultrasounded. Will let you know how he does. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Barnmom - 2014-04-21 7:32 PM Get someone who knows what they are doing to check his whorlbones, its actually a bursa. In my experience if they have had back end issues for any amount of time they will be sore there too.
Also, anytime we get a sore horse in to rehab we usually condition them for a good two months or more before asking them to perform again. That is after we have fixed whatever needs to be fixed. We may breeze them during that time just to insure we have covered all our bases but it takes time to work the residual soreness out and get them moving correctly again.
Not what you want to hear but trust me, waiting til they are really right is much easier in the long run than wasting runs on your horse and beating your head against the wall. Don't ask me how I know that, lol.
I have a feeling his 2014 season is about done before it even got started. We have made 8 runs all year and it doesn't look like run #9 is coming up anytime soon. He may be my little brother's western pleasure horse at the county fair this year after all. |
|
| |
|
 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| cheryl makofka - 2014-04-21 1:17 PM Do you have any videos early on in his career? I say yes he is still sore on the back right leg as he is still coming out of his second and third barrel on the left back lead. If he is still sore on the front right, what is the diagnosis and prognosis?
I saw this as well and not wanting to stretch out behind, keeping his hind legs up under him.
Can't speculate on what it is because there are too many possibilities. In my history it's been a number of things; sore back, hocks, SI, whorlbones, stifles, and most recently, bilateral hind suspensory injuries. Which was hard to find because 2 vets kept saying hocks.
|
|
| |
|
  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff.
I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | missroselee - 2014-04-21 9:49 PM I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff. I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue.
Oh the front feet are thoroughly examined every time he goes to the vet clinic nearest me. We've x-rayed many times and the only thing we can really determine is that his feet aren't very big and I think maybe his pasterns are kinda straight so the feet take a real pounding when he runs. Therefore he lives in magnetic bell boots, wears Soft Rides anytime he's in the trailer or tied to it at a jackpot or rodeo, and I avoid gravel & pavement like the plague.
Also, last November, we had his navicular bursa injected in both front feet to try and relieve the constant pain. Looking back, that was probably a band aid for a problem that started elsewhere, but it probably didn't hurt since the feet have been such a mess.
This is probably part of the problem in finding what hurts him - but he never ever refuses to go in the gate and he acts depressed if I leave without him. He'll run the fence for 20 minutes while I load other horses, nickering and having a fit. Since he's not buddy sour at all, I can only assume he wants to go. |
|
| |
|
 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:05 PM
missroselee - 2014-04-21 9:49 PM I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff. I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue.
Oh the front feet are thoroughly examined every time he goes to the vet clinic nearest me. We've x-rayed many times and the only thing we can really determine is that his feet aren't very big and I think maybe his pasterns are kinda straight so the feet take a real pounding when he runs. Therefore he lives in magnetic bell boots, wears Soft Rides anytime he's in the trailer or tied to it at a jackpot or rodeo, and I avoid gravel & pavement like the plague.
Also, last November, we had his navicular bursa injected in both front feet to try and relieve the constant pain. Looking back, that was probably a band aid for a problem that started elsewhere, but it probably didn't hurt since the feet have been such a mess.
This is probably part of the problem in finding what hurts him - but he never ever refuses to go in the gate and he acts depressed if I leave without him. He'll run the fence for 20 minutes while I load other horses, nickering and having a fit. Since he's not buddy sour at all, I can only assume he wants to go.
straight pasterns and small feet would make me think he possibly has his own issues on the front end and it's not just from compensation.
Are you 100% the pain in his front right is from the foot in origin? What blocks does your vet do? Have you ever radiographed farther up on his front leg?
if a PD blocks out the pain in his front foot that places it somewhere in the heel or sole of the foot, but not the toe.
Abaxial knocks out everything from the pastern down
Low 4 point gets the fetlock, pastern, and foot
High 4 point starts getting your SDFT, DDFT, Suspensory starting mostly down the cannon bone.
I've been told in the past one of mine was compensating and was sore in the hind end… She actually had a torn oblique distal sesamoidean ligament on her front end, and her hind end was not the issue.. the hocks were secondary.
Have you ever had his hocks or stifles looked at? |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | If X-rays are the only thing you have done to his front end, you may want to consider MRI. Horses can have serious issues going on in the front end, or both for that matter, that won't show up just on X-rays. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | casualdust07 - 2014-04-21 10:13 PM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:05 PM missroselee - 2014-04-21 9:49 PM I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff. I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue. Oh the front feet are thoroughly examined every time he goes to the vet clinic nearest me. We've x-rayed many times and the only thing we can really determine is that his feet aren't very big and I think maybe his pasterns are kinda straight so the feet take a real pounding when he runs. Therefore he lives in magnetic bell boots, wears Soft Rides anytime he's in the trailer or tied to it at a jackpot or rodeo, and I avoid gravel & pavement like the plague.
Also, last November, we had his navicular bursa injected in both front feet to try and relieve the constant pain. Looking back, that was probably a band aid for a problem that started elsewhere, but it probably didn't hurt since the feet have been such a mess.
This is probably part of the problem in finding what hurts him - but he never ever refuses to go in the gate and he acts depressed if I leave without him. He'll run the fence for 20 minutes while I load other horses, nickering and having a fit. Since he's not buddy sour at all, I can only assume he wants to go. straight pasterns and small feet would make me think he possibly has his own issues on the front end and it's not just from compensation. Are you 100% the pain in his front right is from the foot in origin? What blocks does your vet do? Have you ever radiographed farther up on his front leg? if a PD blocks out the pain in his front foot that places it somewhere in the heel or sole of the foot, but not the toe. Abaxial knocks out everything from the pastern down Low 4 point gets the fetlock, pastern, and foot High 4 point starts getting your SDFT, DDFT, Suspensory starting mostly down the cannon bone. I've been told in the past one of mine was compensating and was sore in the hind end… She actually had a torn oblique distal sesamoidean ligament on her front end, and her hind end was not the issue.. the hocks were secondary. Have you ever had his hocks or stifles looked at?
I have no idea where the front foot pain originates. It's very low grade and is just across the frog & heels right now.The toe isn't sore at all, and you have to really get after him with hoof testers to get a response even near the frog or heels. Even then, it's not an OW!!!!! response, just kind of an annoyed look from him.
March 6, we blocked all along that front leg and couldn't isolate the pain anywhere. Started low to see if it was in the foot, then worked up and did a couple more blocks. The second block was somewhere around the ankle and it got a slight improvement but didn't have him completely sound trotting little circles on gravel.
I've asked about hocks & stifles many times because that's what everyone on here says anytime a barrel horse isn't working, but we can't get any response to flexion tests and when there is a response in the front end, we wind up trying to fix the front feet so we can hopefully see if there's a problem elsewhere. Which of course we can never find and he never stops trying to work. If he would just stop mid-run when the pain hit, maybe we could figure out what actually hurt and fix it!
I'm going to try and get an appointment for a complete lameness exam and whatever else is necessary at a different vet next Wednesday (next day I will have any time) so hopefully we can get to the bottom of it and maybe have him back before the end of the year. I swear I'm done pre-entering things on him. Every time I do this year, we find more stuff that needs fixed. |
|
| |
Folks on-line