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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
   
Location: North Dakota | Well, I drove over 5 hours to the vet and back again. But it was worth it. And now I'm too hopped up on caffiene to sleep, from all the driving, so might as well up-date those folks who were wondering what I was going to find out from the vet.
Here's the old thread for those that don't know what is going on but are curious:
http://forums.barrelhorseworld.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=451719&posts=46&mid=7021166&highlight=&highlightmode=1&action=search#M7021166
First off, let's start by clarifying some things on his x-rays. The line that some of you saw on his x-rays is NOT a fracture and it is NOT a disturbance in the growth plate. It is normal. It is the skewtum. (I know I am totally butchering the spelling. Tried googling it but couldn't find anything. But that is how it is pronounced.) It is where a major tendon/ligament attaches to the bone. The vet showed me a cadaver bone and it's very easy to see how you can see it on an x-ray.
Now the vet also thought he was still a little sore on his right hock even though they were just injected on June 9th. He literally said his hock x-rays were "impressive". He said that there has been something abnormal about Red's right hock since birth, which is what has caused the upper (of the two lower) hock joints to be so fused by this point in his life. He called it a severe case of juvenile arthritis. Of course, once it's done fusing, Red will be good to go. But again, he said Red has had that for a VERY long time.
Since the injections don't seem to be fully taking care of it, I asked him what else I can do. He told me to start him on Previcox and keep him on Previcox. So I will do that. Thankfully, it comes in a pill form that is broken into small pieces that I can easily sneak into his feed without him knowing!! (Mr. Picky Eater) Of course, I will continue to keep him on Adequan and Platinum Performance CJ.
And now for the front feet mystery. In his expert opinion, he says that Red is possibly having bursitis underneath the navicular bone in both front feet, worse on his left. (Basically, some sort of blister under the navicular bone.) Or else some other kind of tendonitis affecting the tendon. I would need to have an MRI done to confirm exactly what is going on. I'm opting NOT to do that because I don't really want to drive to Colorado (closest one for me) and spend $2,200. ........ When it will not change how we will treat Red.
He said that since the lameness has never been sudden, it can't be a bone bruise or tendon tear. He said with something like that it will be BAM! and they are dead lame on one foot. That has never happened in Red's case.
He also does NOT believe that Red has navicular. There are very small subtle changes in his navicular bone. There are two lines I have indicated here: (Hard to see unless you have a high definition computer like he had, but I remember where they are.)
He said for how sore Red is on his front feet, that these small changes CANNOT be the sole cause. Now I asked him ..... were these bony changes here first? Or was the bursitis/tendonitis there first? He couldn't really answer that, because there's no way to know which one was there first. Or which one caused which one.
He said the first thing you can do to treat the inflammation is to give the horse a year off. Well considering Red really wasn't ridden much until I bought him at the age of 6, and that's he's gotten a solid 4 months off each winter, we agreed that there doesn't seem to be any point in doing that. Because even if you give him the year off, he may still come up lame again when you start riding him. It's not a for sure fix.
He said the next thing you can try is to do a wedge shoe/pad. Which we are already doing. I have him in a regular rim shoe with a 2 degree wedge pad underneath. It worked great last year. Is not working this year.
So the next step (which we did today) was to inject the coffin bone/joint. He said the first injection will often last for a year, which I was very surprised to hear. He's never seen any long term effects of using injections to keep the inflammation under control.
He said they used to directly inject the bursa (if the horse had bursitis) directly under the coffin bone. It worked fabulous until they started to find out that once you did that, you only had about 1 1/2 years left of using your horse before the inners of his foot were literally destroyed. He's not sure exactly what does it, because you have to put the needle through the tendon to get underneath the navicular bone, but about the only time he does that is on very aged horses where the owner only wants one more summer from the horse. Because they'll be "done" after that. So of course, they do NOT do that type of injection hardly at all.
If the injections to the coffin bone ever quit working (which usually does not happen) the last resort would be to nerve the horse. He showed me very much in detail on Red foot, exactly where he goes in for the surgery and what part of the nerve he removes. He says that many people mistakenly think that when you nerve a horse, they will stumble a lot because they "can't feel their feet". He showed me the exact area that would be numbed and it is only the very back of the heel. The sides of the foot still have feeling, as does the toe. He also said that a horse is LESS likely to stumble when they have heel pain when they HAVE been nerved. If the horse is trying to land toe-first in order to avoid having the heel pain, then that is when the pastern joint "gives out" and the horse stumbles. If he can make the horse comfortable on their heel, they will either land flat-footed or heel-first like they are supposed to ..... and will stumble much less.
He said that the minimum a nerving procedure will last is about 2 years, because the nerves can grow back. He does have one horse that is still going strong 15 years after the procedure. He said the maximum number of times you really can have it done is 3 times, because at that point there is so much scar tissue that it is almost impossible to accurately locate the nerve and do the procedure.
So that's that! Red will get his 3 days off and Previcox so I am very excited to see how he feels when I ride him again.
Edited by r_beau 2014-07-16 11:25 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
 
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Gosh I hope that this gets the job done, poor Red its time for his feet to start feeling better. So fingers cross for the both of you.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I am glad you got an answer, hopefully it works. |
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 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | Glad you got him to a good vet that can help him |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | Glad to find your trip was not wasted! After watching you two run on Sunday, I had hoped your Vet visit would only improve what already looks great! With the level of arthritis Red is suffering from, do a little research on Pentosan. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Well, sounds like you learned a lot but I do disagree with the onset of lameness cant be bone bruising or tendon tear.
I have had both that were intermitten (sp?) lameness mis-diagnosed by a few top equine vets. And I wasted 2 years on one horse and a year on the other trying NOT to spend $1400 (cost of MRI in Okla for both front feet). I would spend TWICE that to know what I was infact dealing with and therefore save time and dedication to a no where road. Sorry to be the party pooper but I will hope for the best for you and Red. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| Wow....I hope Red's feet feel better within the next few days. Ive dealt with a horse that had arthritis at a young age, the best product Ive ever used was Tight Joint Plus. I saw results within 3 days and his performance improved alot. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Glad you found out what was wrong. You might want to consider trying Silver Lining Herbs. Feet and Bone and Kidney. Add Flax to your feed. Then give Polyglycan and Pentosan . I used Platinum CJ and it didn't work on my horse. Asked my vet and was told to feed whole flax seed. And give injectable Polyglycan and Pentosan. Feed through joint supplements are only absorbed by 20% |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I don't know a ton about Pentosan or Polyglycan. Are those also given intramuscular?
Red just finished his loading dose for Adequan on July 5th.
I know that Pentosan and Adequan are similar. Is there any reason (or benefit) to do both? What sort of dosing schedule do you do? Would you ever do all three? (Pentosan, Polyglycan, Adequan)
I know that the feed-throughs (like Platinum Performance CJ) have to make it through the digestive system before makingn it to the joints, but I don't mind feeding it anyway for the rest of the nutrients for his body and good overall health.
Flax seed ..... what component in the flax seed is specifically helping joints? (My parents raise flax so that would be an easy steal from the grain bin.) Of course, the omega-3 would be good for their hair and feet.
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 Veteran
Posts: 135
Location: louisiana | spitzh - 2014-07-17 10:04 AM
Wow....I hope Red's feet feel better within the next few days. Ive dealt with a horse that had arthritis at a young age, the best product Ive ever used was Tight Joint Plus. I saw results within 3 days and his performance improved alot.
where do you find this stuff? ive never heard of it |
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 Expert
Posts: 2604
Location: Texas | I have had very similar issues with one of my horses. I even had the MRI done with no significant findings. Tried the injections with no lasting results. I finally tried TLC Animal Nutrition's EquiBone and had really great results with it. The horse went sound in about a month. Kept the horse on it for over a year, but then discontinued it cuz I thought he didn't need it anymore. A another year later and I am back to the same problems. Have him on Previcox which isn't helping. Took him back to the vet and the vet said "do whatever it was you did before"... which was the EquiBone! Just something you might consider. |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | r_beau - 2014-07-17 10:43 AM I don't know a ton about Pentosan or Polyglycan. Are those also given intramuscular?
Red just finished his loading dose for Adequan on July 5th.
I know that Pentosan and Adequan are similar. Is there any reason (or benefit) to do both? What sort of dosing schedule do you do? Would you ever do all three? (Pentosan, Polyglycan, Adequan)
I know that the feed-throughs (like Platinum Performance CJ) have to make it through the digestive system before makingn it to the joints, but I don't mind feeding it anyway for the rest of the nutrients for his body and good overall health.
Flax seed ..... what component in the flax seed is specifically helping joints? (My parents raise flax so that would be an easy steal from the grain bin.) Of course, the omega-3 would be good for their hair and feet.
Adequan stimulates cartilidge repair and Pentosan helps actually eliminate arthritis/extend the need for injections. I only do Pentosan (1 injection per week for a month then monthly OR as often as needed I think it has HUGE antiinflammatory properties) I have never believed in feed through items that help with joint/cartilidge repair and partly because of the cost of the Platinum CJ, I probably will never try it so I don't have an opinion on one versus another. (humans use glucosamine/msm tablets but what it comes down to is treating specific area's-having the knee/shoulder injected to ultimately reduce the swelling/pain)
Flax has some antiinflammatory benefits as well and if you have that easy access to it I wouldn't think twice about feeding it. I usually don't feed it in the summer because my guys dont come in often for grain, but this year I've been diligent about getting them their flax at least 4 days a week and they all look better than ever. And I think feel better too.
Keep in mind that Pentosan is relatively reasonable (6-10 per dose) if bought through Wedgewood Pharmacy-which is a compounding pharmacy. It's probably the best thing I've ever found for the needs of my horses.
http://www.pentosan.com/ |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | How MUCH flax seed is a good amount to feed per day? And you feed it whole, correct?
That EquiBone feed sounds interesting. I gauked at the price a little thought.
See that's kinda my thing with PP CJ though. I started Red on it last year when the front end problem first emerged. Along with adding the shoes, he was 100% sound last year. I'm not sure how much it helped, or how much was the shoes, but I'm kinda superstitious to change him off the PP CJ.
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| Very informational! Thanks for sharing all that you learned. Glad you got the answers you were looking for. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | LMS - 2014-07-17 11:40 AM r_beau - 2014-07-17 10:43 AM I don't know a ton about Pentosan or Polyglycan. Are those also given intramuscular?
Red just finished his loading dose for Adequan on July 5th.
I know that Pentosan and Adequan are similar. Is there any reason (or benefit) to do both? What sort of dosing schedule do you do? Would you ever do all three? (Pentosan, Polyglycan, Adequan)
I know that the feed-throughs (like Platinum Performance CJ) have to make it through the digestive system before makingn it to the joints, but I don't mind feeding it anyway for the rest of the nutrients for his body and good overall health.
Flax seed ..... what component in the flax seed is specifically helping joints? (My parents raise flax so that would be an easy steal from the grain bin.) Of course, the omega-3 would be good for their hair and feet.
Adequan stimulates cartilidge repair and Pentosan helps actually eliminate arthritis/extend the need for injections. I only do Pentosan (1 injection per week for a month then monthly OR as often as needed I think it has HUGE antiinflammatory properties) I have never believed in feed through items that help with joint/cartilidge repair and partly because of the cost of the Platinum CJ, I probably will never try it so I don't have an opinion on one versus another. (humans use glucosamine/msm tablets but what it comes down to is treating specific area's-having the knee/shoulder injected to ultimately reduce the swelling/pain)
Flax has some antiinflammatory benefits as well and if you have that easy access to it I wouldn't think twice about feeding it. I usually don't feed it in the summer because my guys dont come in often for grain, but this year I've been diligent about getting them their flax at least 4 days a week and they all look better than ever. And I think feel better too.
Keep in mind that Pentosan is relatively reasonable (6-10 per dose) if bought through Wedgewood Pharmacy-which is a compounding pharmacy. It's probably the best thing I've ever found for the needs of my horses.
http://www.pentosan.com/
Please remind me again, Pentosan is only compounded in the US right? Not an FDA product? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 507
Location: Lost in the corn of Iowa. | spitzh - 2014-07-17 10:04 AM
Wow....I hope Red's feet feel better within the next few days. Ive dealt with a horse that had arthritis at a young age, the best product Ive ever used was Tight Joint Plus. I saw results within 3 days and his performance improved alot.
I have just recently put a mare on this as well for mysterious front end lameness. And after a week she was still a little "off" on the front end but not as bad as she had been. And it's fairly cheap for the length of time the supplement lasts. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 507
Location: Lost in the corn of Iowa. | jw1990 - 2014-07-17 10:51 AM
spitzh - 2014-07-17 10:04 AM
Wow....I hope Red's feet feel better within the next few days. Ive dealt with a horse that had arthritis at a young age, the best product Ive ever used was Tight Joint Plus. I saw results within 3 days and his performance improved alot.
where do you find this stuff? ive never heard of it
http://www.tightjointsplus.net/ |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | As far as I know yes pentosan is compounded in the US
Oh and 1 cup of flax per day, I grind mine, but a lot say otherwise.
Edited by LMS 2014-07-17 3:50 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| LMS - 2014-07-17 11:40 AM
r_beau - 2014-07-17 10:43 AM I don't know a ton about Pentosan or Polyglycan. Are those also given intramuscular?
Red just finished his loading dose for Adequan on July 5th.
I know that Pentosan and Adequan are similar. Is there any reason (or benefit) to do both? What sort of dosing schedule do you do? Would you ever do all three? (Pentosan, Polyglycan, Adequan)
I know that the feed-throughs (like Platinum Performance CJ) have to make it through the digestive system before makingn it to the joints, but I don't mind feeding it anyway for the rest of the nutrients for his body and good overall health.
Flax seed ..... what component in the flax seed is specifically helping joints? (My parents raise flax so that would be an easy steal from the grain bin.) Of course, the omega-3 would be good for their hair and feet.
Adequan stimulates cartilidge repair and Pentosan helps actually eliminate arthritis/extend the need for injections. I only do Pentosan (1 injection per week for a month then monthly OR as often as needed I think it has HUGE antiinflammatory properties) I have never believed in feed through items that help with joint/cartilidge repair and partly because of the cost of the Platinum CJ, I probably will never try it so I don't have an opinion on one versus another. (humans use glucosamine/msm tablets but what it comes down to is treating specific area's-having the knee/shoulder injected to ultimately reduce the swelling/pain)
Flax has some antiinflammatory benefits as well and if you have that easy access to it I wouldn't think twice about feeding it. I usually don't feed it in the summer because my guys dont come in often for grain, but this year I've been diligent about getting them their flax at least 4 days a week and they all look better than ever. And I think feel better too.
Keep in mind that Pentosan is relatively reasonable (6-10 per dose) if bought through Wedgewood Pharmacy-which is a compounding pharmacy. It's probably the best thing I've ever found for the needs of my horses.http://www.pentosan.com/
I have my gelding on Pentosan right now - just finished the loading dose last week. After running him in both runs at the first double header I went to this summer, he seemed just a little bit sore behind when I was walking him out after the second one.
Had the vet check him out, and she said if it would make me feel better we COULD inject his hocks, but he wasn't at a point where it was really needed yet. She recommended starting him on either Adequan or Pentosan, and also suggested giving him some Banamine IV 2 hours prior to running him, as well as only running him 1x/day (so roll times to second race). I decided to go with the Pentosan because it was going to be quite a bit cheaper...and money's tight! She also said that some horses do better on one versus the other, but agreed with my decision to start with the Pentosan.
So far I'm very happy with the results I've seen! I haven't noticed any stiffness/soreness after I work him hard or run him, even last weekend in Fargo (stalled on concrete, had to walk across concrete to the arena, just concrete, concrete, concrete), and he feels a lot freer when I run him. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | k.maddocks24 - 2014-07-17 3:12 PM I have my gelding on Pentosan right now - just finished the loading dose last week. After running him in both runs at the first double header I went to this summer, he seemed just a little bit sore behind when I was walking him out after the second one. Had the vet check him out, and she said if it would make me feel better we COULD inject his hocks, but he wasn't at a point where it was really needed yet. She recommended starting him on either Adequan or Pentosan, and also suggested giving him some Banamine IV 2 hours prior to running him, as well as only running him 1x/day (so roll times to second race ). I decided to go with the Pentosan because it was going to be quite a bit cheaper...and money's tight! She also said that some horses do better on one versus the other, but agreed with my decision to start with the Pentosan. So far I'm very happy with the results I've seen! I haven't noticed any stiffness/soreness after I work him hard or run him, even last weekend in Fargo (stalled on concrete, had to walk across concrete to the arena, just concrete, concrete, concrete ), and he feels a lot freer when I run him.
Total unrelated question .... you still running that big black horse of yours or do you have a new horse?
I so wish I would have injected Red's hocks sooner! Granted, he has some pretty obvious changes on the x-ray but I can't believe the night and day difference I could feel in his back end.
I'll definately have to consider Pentosan or at least ask my vet(s) about it for Red. Anything I can do to make him feel better will be worth it. Too bad everything IS so expensive. I don't even want to add up everything I've spent on him for treatments because it would just make me depressed, haha.
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