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 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
   
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | Now that I got your attention, I need your guys' help. I am writing a paper for my ethics class and I chose to do it on something I know a little bit about- steroids/drugs in livestock. What I need help on is names of "drugs" that would fall into the "morally grey" area as my prof would say. Example- acetazolamide. I am almost positive it is a banned substance by FEI and for sure AQHA, unless you have a vet's note that your horse has HYPP. Acetazolamide was a lifesaver, literally, for my N/H horse but in the end, it's still a banned substance. Dual purpose, I guess one could say. Thanks in advance! |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Ventipulmin
Lasix electrolyte imbalance
The big ethical question if these animals have morbidities where they need medication to perform, how is it ethical to administer medication to the animal for human pleasure?
Nerving a horse surgically eliminates the pain, but improves performance yet has not cured the problem
Dex, can cause founder
With any drugs there are side effects
Bute
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-07-28 5:09 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Bute and banamine 12 hours out instead of 3 to 4 for some people. |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Here is the other side. I love to run, but need asprin or ibuprophen to continue to participate in that sport. I would hate it and be miserible if I was told I can't do what I love anymore because I need some pain assistance. I would venture that MOST human athletes, although maybe not the day of competition, have more aches and pains than non athletic individuals.
If every horse that required some bute or lasix to compete were removed from any competition market, there would be thousands of horses deemed useless. I could not afford to keep every horse I ever rode and quit using them because they needed help, Many would be put down.
I have never had to use anything other than lasix and bute/banamine type drugs and always with vets approval. I don't see how those are preformance enhancing.
I really don't know anything about steroids other than Ventipulman and I don't have a problem with people using that.
I think everything we do can be seen as preformance enhancing, every suppliment on the market advertises "this will help your horse perform better".
I think it should be up to the individual rider and their vet.
Just another point of view.
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 Peecans
| Are we just talking horses or livestock in general? |
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Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general.
No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners. |
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Expert
Posts: 1226
| Is winstrol a banded substance? |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | I just have to ask after Nicholas Delpopolo was disqualified for this performance enhancing drug..... Do they test horses for cannabis?  |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long |
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  A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | 'Juicing up' is wrong. Period. Anything unnatural going into that horse just to make it run faster is just wrong. I was naive when I first came into this sport and I really wish I still was. I had no idea that people shot their horses up just to run. Whether it was to settle them down or hype them up. I had only known all-natural horses. So I had no idea about all these other things.
Now I will say in livestock production, there are no legal hormones or steroids used in poultry or swine production. The antibiotics used are for treatment and prevention purposes only, not for 'growth enhancement'. Hormones are used in beef cattle but you're talking a tiny little plastic casing with minimal amount of naturally occurring hormone that is injected into the cattle. The hormones are done doing their thing by the time it comes time to be slaughtered. And there is a huge window of antibiotic free time for animals going to slaughter too. And this is HIGHLY regulated. ANY drug injected into an animal meant for slaughter is monitored. Every drop of those drugs needs to be accounted for. At least on the farm I worked on.
I guess the hormones used in beef cattle could be considered morally gray to some people. But they post no threat to the consumer at the end of the line. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Edited by hlynn 2014-07-28 11:36 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:19 PM
'Juicing up' is wrong. Period. Anything unnatural going into that horse just to make it run faster is just wrong. I was naive when I first came into this sport and I really wish I still was. I had no idea that people shot their horses up just to run. Whether it was to settle them down or hype them up. I had only known all-natural horses. So I had no idea about all these other things.
Now I will say in livestock production, there are no legal hormones or steroids used in poultry or swine production. The antibiotics used are for treatment and prevention purposes only, not for 'growth enhancement'. Hormones are used in beef cattle but you're talking a tiny little plastic casing with minimal amount of naturally occurring hormone that is injected into the cattle. The hormones are done doing their thing by the time it comes time to be slaughtered. And there is a huge window of antibiotic free time for animals going to slaughter too. And this is HIGHLY regulated. ANY drug injected into an animal meant for slaughter is monitored. Every drop of those drugs needs to be accounted for. At least on the farm I worked on.
I guess the hormones used in beef cattle could be considered morally gray to some people. But they post no threat to the consumer at the end of the line.
Well... when I was working in the dairy industry... everybody was up in arms about the steroids injected into cows.... They simple made the cows hungry so they would eat more.... It used to be they milked cows twice a day.... I've worked on several that milk 3-5 times a day now... |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
The op did not want discussions on for or against.
To build a good paper one must look at the other side of the argument and give a logical explanation to disprove or cast shadow of doubt on the other side.
I am not going to discuss any topic, this is her paper, and good luck to her as this topic is a difficult one especially in the equine performance industry, as most professors do not have the equine background to understand, so the paper must teach as well as prove of disprove a topic. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Yeah.... I can remember a time when dairy farmers got an antibiotic mix from the vets... We called it 'Redmix'.. It was a powdered antibiotic for poultry... The reason they did this was because it did not show up on antibiotic tests done on the milk at the time... so they could pump the milk into the tank and sell it... the drug was Spectinomycin.... There is always someone looking for a way to cheat the system. |
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Peecans
| komet. - 2014-07-28 10:29 PM
hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:19 PM
'Juicing up' is wrong. Period. Anything unnatural going into that horse just to make it run faster is just wrong. I was naive when I first came into this sport and I really wish I still was. I had no idea that people shot their horses up just to run. Whether it was to settle them down or hype them up. I had only known all-natural horses. So I had no idea about all these other things.
Now I will say in livestock production, there are no legal hormones or steroids used in poultry or swine production. The antibiotics used are for treatment and prevention purposes only, not for 'growth enhancement'. Hormones are used in beef cattle but you're talking a tiny little plastic casing with minimal amount of naturally occurring hormone that is injected into the cattle. The hormones are done doing their thing by the time it comes time to be slaughtered. And there is a huge window of antibiotic free time for animals going to slaughter too. And this is HIGHLY regulated. ANY drug injected into an animal meant for slaughter is monitored. Every drop of those drugs needs to be accounted for. At least on the farm I worked on.
I guess the hormones used in beef cattle could be considered morally gray to some people. But they post no threat to the consumer at the end of the line.
Well... when I was working in the dairy industry... everybody was up in arms about the steroids injected into cows.... They simple made the cows hungry so they would eat more.... It used to be they milked cows twice a day.... I've worked on several that milk 3-5 times a day now...
You cant give a dairy cow in canada steroids, you will lose you quota and be fined huge if you do.
I know she dosent want discussion but this shouldent be an "issue" for her as its not at all aloud. |
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Peecans
| komet. - 2014-07-28 10:58 PM
hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Yeah.... I can remember a time when dairy farmers got an antibiotic mix from the vets... We called it 'Redmix'.. It was a powdered antibiotic for poultry... The reason they did this was because it did not show up on antibiotic tests done on the milk at the time... so they could pump the milk into the tank and sell it... the drug was Spectinomycin.... There is always someone looking for a way to cheat the system.
Im sorry but I HATE storys like this, it makes all daryherds men/woman look like awful people. Not only do you need a Dairy man thats careless and crooked you need a awful crooked vet willing to sell POULTRY meds to a DAIRY farm. I hope you reported that vet to the board. Stories like this is what give way out there animal rights groups the fire and fule to destroy us all and they are the minority not quality farms.
Everbody evolved in your story needs to give thier heads a shake absoulty pathetic. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | della - 2014-07-29 12:20 AM
komet. - 2014-07-28 10:58 PM
hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Yeah.... I can remember a time when dairy farmers got an antibiotic mix from the vets... We called it 'Redmix'.. It was a powdered antibiotic for poultry... The reason they did this was because it did not show up on antibiotic tests done on the milk at the time... so they could pump the milk into the tank and sell it... the drug was Spectinomycin.... There is always someone looking for a way to cheat the system.
Im sorry but I HATE storys like this, it makes all daryherds men/woman look like awful people. Not only do you need a Dairy man thats careless and crooked you need a awful crooked vet willing to sell POULTRY meds to a DAIRY farm. I hope you reported that vet to the board. Stories like this is what give way out there animal rights groups the fire and fule to destroy us all and they are the minority not quality farms.
Everbody evolved in your story needs to give thier heads a shake absoulty pathetic.
I don't excuse what they did. But at the time the farmers were trying to survive the Reagannomic war on farmers... Every (9 cents per) pound of milk counted.. The vet?? I will not comment on.. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | komet. - 2014-07-29 12:58 AM
hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Yeah.... I can remember a time when dairy farmers got an antibiotic mix from the vets... We called it 'Redmix'.. It was a powdered antibiotic for poultry... The reason they did this was because it did not show up on antibiotic tests done on the milk at the time... so they could pump the milk into the tank and sell it... the drug was Spectinomycin.... There is always someone looking for a way to cheat the system.
Good luck doing that today. It's a whole new world. Trust me. There's not a lot of wiggle room on anything in the current day & age. Everything is closely monitored and regulated. Very closely. And in the age of vertical integration, the producers have a LOT more control over what is/isn't in their animals.
Just because the place you were involved in did shady things, doesn't mean every farm did/does.
I saw every aspect of production as an intern and nothing was hidden to me. I have zero problem eating the brands I helped produce or recommending them to others. I know the massive amount of checks and balances that happen within the industry. From birth to death. Every single thing is tracked. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | hlynn - 2014-07-29 12:57 AM
komet. - 2014-07-29 12:58 AM
hlynn - 2014-07-28 11:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-29 12:14 AM
bccanchaser16 - 2014-07-28 10:53 PM
della - 2014-07-28 8:36 PM Are we just talking horses or livestock in general?
Livestock in general. No opinions pleaaaseeee, I do have my position on the topic and it is sided towards livestock producers/horse owners.
You also need to consider how these products are showing up in the food chain.
There are many countries that purchase horse meat, Alberta they only ask what the horse has had in past 6 months not in a life time.
For cattle the hormones the little green disc that dissolves, 4h people are inserting these into the cows and are considering these cows to be hormone free.
Antibiotics in chickens and pigs some are saying is leading to antibiotic resistant organisms
Whatever side you choose, make sure you have a solution for the other sides argument.
I would suggest narrowing it down to a specific animal, otherwise it will be too long
These arguments have no scientific proof.
The antibiotics used in swine and poultry and even beef production are NOT in the animals body when it comes time for slaughter. There is a huge buffer time between the last active day of the drug and when the animal can safely be slaughtered. We are talking weeks and months, not days.
The hormones used in beef cattle are naturally occurring. Ie: progesterone, estrogen, etc. So do we need to make sure there are only steers in the food chain? That way we won't have any estrogen in the food chain? The implants have done their job by slaughter age. So they're done, out, used up by then.
I have a good idea of what is causing antibiotic resistant strains of organisms. And it has nothing to do with animals. It's the people that keep going to the doctor wanting antibiotics for colds and other things that do not need antibiotics. But a dr will hand out the Rx just to shut people up. It happens. I actually read an article where a Dr was talking about the over abundance of unnecessary antibiotics being prescribed to children and adults. That would be a good place to look as far as the source of this new phenomenon.
Yeah.... I can remember a time when dairy farmers got an antibiotic mix from the vets... We called it 'Redmix'.. It was a powdered antibiotic for poultry... The reason they did this was because it did not show up on antibiotic tests done on the milk at the time... so they could pump the milk into the tank and sell it... the drug was Spectinomycin.... There is always someone looking for a way to cheat the system.
Good luck doing that today. It's a whole new world. Trust me. There's not a lot of wiggle room on anything in the current day & age. Everything is closely monitored and regulated. Very closely. And in the age of vertical integration, the producers have a LOT more control over what is/isn't in their animals.
Just because the place you were involved in did shady things, doesn't mean every farm did/does.
I saw every aspect of production as an intern and nothing was hidden to me. I have zero problem eating the brands I helped produce or recommending them to others. I know the massive amount of checks and balances that happen within the industry. From birth to death. Every single thing is tracked.
To answer both you and Della... I understand there are lots of honest farmers out there... I worked for a few of them.. Every life counted. I know, even if most of the people here don't, just how hard a family dairy farmer has to work.. I've been there...
The last two years I was in Idaho I worked as a milk tester.... I did 18 barns a month.... everything from 80 cows a day to ten thousand... I can tell stories that would curl your hair and make some of you puke to learn how some of these animals are treated... I finally quit just because I could not stand seeing it anymore... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | Endurance (AERC) has a lengthy list of banned/prohibited substances. Among them are Antihistimines. That might be some of the grey area type you are looking for. A rider's horse may need some Tri-hist granules to combat insect bites/hives...but better not do it before a race. It's considered performance enhancing because it also affects the Central nervous system and can be used as a calming agent.
Is that the sort you are looking for? |
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