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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | I see a lot of questions about supplement use on this site. The question of "have you tried this, or have you tried that" is a loaded one. There is so much more to the horses digestive system function than a lot of people are considering. How one supplement works for one horse related to the rest of its diet and specific needs can have very little to do with how it will work in a different horse on a different diet. Probiotics are one example. You may get a very positive result with a probiotic in a horse that has a challenged digestive system or a poor basic diet, and see no change at all in a horse that has a system and diet that allows that horse to maintain a proper hind gut function on its own. A balanced complete feeding program that generates as much of the horses energy needs from its roughage source will limit the need for additional concentrate in the diet. This in turn eliminates disruption down stream in the system and allows a more consistent environment in the hind gut resulting in more efficient digestion of the roughage. This also results in more consistent immune function which in turn limits allergic reactions. None of this is possible without the horses teeth being able to chew properly, which is how the roughage is conditioned to be digested in the first place, and can determine how much saliva is produced, which can buffer stomach acid and effect ulcers. You can see how interrelated all of this is. In many cases that is why one person will say "I tried X and it worked great for me" and another says "don't waste your money". We need to get the horses digestive system functional to that horses potential before we really will know if additional supplements are a benefit or totally unnecessary. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | That is my point. Not all horses are the same for a number of reasons, and why I mentioned getting the horses system to function to it's potential. That absolute potential is obviously not the same in every horse. However, evolution is an amazing thing. The vast majority respond to a diet that fits the way they evolved to function. A diet that does not fit the system may still work, just not to the individuals maximum potential. The closer a diet is to a proper digestive "fit" the closer to efficient energy production the horse is, and the less artificial support is necessary to get a positive result. |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Are you selling a product? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | ok... |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I am stating a point. I do have a feeding program for horses, and as such have done direct customer feeding programs for over twenty-five years. I am simply stating that one persons result does not necessarily have a lot of value to everyone else unless they are working under the same exact conditions. And even then, as was pointed out above, not all horses have the same response to supplements. My point was, and is, that we feed horses into trouble, and then try to supplement them out. Better not to feed them into trouble to begin with. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I cringe when I see posts and owners have horses on several supplements. My guess is some have no idea why. Just someone said so ..keep it simple ..great feeding program( grain or oats)...quality hay. Electrolytes. Water. Unless vet prescribes for a condition |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 1:11 PM
That is my point. Not all horses are the same for a number of reasons, and why I mentioned getting the horses system to function to it's potential. That absolute potential is obviously not the same in every horse. However, evolution is an amazing thing. The vast majority respond to a diet that fits the way they evolved to function. A diet that does not fit the system may still work, just not to the individuals maximum potential. The closer a diet is to a proper digestive "fit" the closer to efficient energy production the horse is, and the less artificial support is necessary to get a positive result.
Excellant explanations ! Thank you.  |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Bigfoot Country | ok....but how do you come to this conclusion? do you do blood work to see where the horse is lacking? hair analysis?
thanks |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | This is a great thread and I'm glad someone is finally saying this!! So many people do not have good feeding programs for their horses and therefore expect a single supplement to fix everything. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Blood work is more reliable in my opinion. Even though it only tells you what happened to be going past the needle when it was drawn. Still a pretty good overview. I typically do blood once per year on our performance horses. Once a horses system is on track, that blood work rarely changes. For those who never do blood, most healthy bright horses in proper fit usually will have the blood work to match. Remember, when the modern horse evolved, there was no place it could go to the supplement pile to stock up. A proper forage based diet met all of it's nutritional needs. We ask our horses for more. So some additional energy can be required to remain fit. The best answer to that additional energy is to use a energy dense feed source that disrupts the system as little as possible. In addition, we need to see that fat soluble vitamins are supplied, and that historic regional shortages in minerals are addressed. Beyond that, a healthy hind gut will take care of the needed water soluble vitamins, and maintain a properly functioning immune system. In addition, I add a salt source. It does not have to be more complicated than that.
Edited by winwillows 2014-08-11 2:00 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs. |
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 Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Speaking of supplements. They sent me some samples of Triple Crown Omega Max, rice bran oil and Fish Oil supplement when we won 2nd place in the photo contest. I noticed a difference with just my limited amount to feed and am going to purchase some in the future. Also, the TCOM tasted really good. |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM
I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs.
We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 2:45 PM
readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM
I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs.
We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common.
How do you know this horse is on a simple diet, the owner says she is giving herbs, it could be a few different herbs or it could be 50 different herbs. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 3:26 PM winwillows - 2014-08-11 2:45 PM readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs. We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common. How do you know this horse is on a simple diet, the owner says she is giving herbs, it could be a few different herbs or it could be 50 different herbs.
I am feeding a combination of herbs. To heal the issues she was having. I may try the Renew Gold later on . Now I'm only feeding alfalfa for hay. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I don't usually see 50 herbs in a diet. But then again, I do see a lot of things that make it hard to tell what is helping and what is not helping. Herbs really fit into the category of vastly different effects depending on the individual horse. I used to spend months every year working in the UK with three day eventers. Hilton Herbs was a very popular brand there and a lot of the horses I worked with were on them. Results that could be related to herbs were all over the board. I have a very high regard for Sherry Cervi's opinion on what is working with her horses and she is a fan of Silver Linings. The rest of the diet we do for Stingray's energy production is very simple. All that aside, if I were going down that road, it would be slowly and not with a bunch of different herbs at once. |
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Expert
Posts: 4652
| Are you talking about top feed suppliments or nutritional / nutracutical products?? There is a huge difference. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Where US labeled products for consumption is concerned, in US law the term nutraceutical has no meaning. Depending on its ingredients and the claims with which it is marketed, a product is regulated as one of the following. Drug, dietary supplement, food ingredient, or food. There is no legal regulation on the use of the word, so just about any product for consumption can use the term. From a practical point, it is usually used to refer to a product that is refined from one or more food ingredients that has a therapeutic use or effect in treating or preventing a disease. That is not to say that there are not products that have a drug, or therapeutic effect on horses. Just saying that it is a misleading term for some supplement products and needs to be looked at with caution. My point on uncomplicated diets refers to all supplementation, nutraceutical or not. I am not saying that supplements are wrong. I have formulated many for companies like Absorbine, Miracle Corp and ADM and feel that they served their purpose well. It is the combination of a crazy number of supplements without understanding the result that may lead to unintended consequences. |
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Expert
Posts: 4652
| I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing, But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
Edited by Bob 2014-08-11 5:32 PM
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