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  Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
 
Location: Illinois | I am looking at getting either a crown c or the new fx3 and I have no idea what size gullet I would need. I currently ride in a Martin all-around with a 7 in gullet. Do all the martin saddles have the same concept of bring behind the shoulder? Or is that just a crown c thing? My all around I have been putting in my mare on top of her shoulder because that is the only spot it sits level at. But she is getting dry spots behind her shoulders. I am thinking the 7 in gullet is to narrow because she is a pretty stout mare but she has a nice defined wither. Is there a reason my saddle pops up in the back when I put the saddle behind her shoulder? I'll try and post a pic of where I am placing it if my phone will let me. Can you guys tell me if it's to far forward for martin standards? Thanks!
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I was taught to feel under the saddle/pad for where the shoulder slopes off. Put the first concho there as that's where the tree begins. Once you move the saddle back to that area and put the shims underneath you should be level and have even pressure...assuming that you have the correct gullet size. IMO a 7" is pretty small/narrow. My gelding was underweight and severely atrophied when I had him fitted and he was a 7.5" and when I bought a saddle it was an 8.5".
I tried my 8.5" on my extremely out of shape gelding (he's more cow bred looking where as first gelding was appendix & def looked more race-y) and I get terrible dry spots. He probably even needs the flatter bars, but I've not even really tried to think of what he'd need gullet wise. Probably more like a 9.5 at minimum. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| The wither has nothing to do with gullet, or saddle placement it all has to do with size of shoulder and shoulder placement | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1115
Location: Arkansas | To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end..
Edited by Ethel 2014-10-23 6:22 PM
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
 
Location: Alberta | I just bought a FX3 and I place behind the shoulder and it's a 7inch gullet. I would try on the FX3 cause they do fit wider from what I've seen and told so....but as mentioned the bars and their angle make the difference!
Edited by dream_chaser 2014-10-23 7:48 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM
To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end..Â
Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide.
Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars.
If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle.
If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 742
| Ok, I'm trying to understand this. Why would a saddle be placed behind the shoulders? You would not be sitting in the sweetspot of the horses back(where you sit bareback naturally) youd be behind it? And why do you shim? If the gullet is too big why not get the correct gullet size and not shim? This is all so confusing to me.  | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| kramerica - 2014-10-23 8:17 PM
Ok, I'm trying to understand this. Â Why would a saddle be placed behind the shoulders? You would not be sitting in the sweetspot of the horses back(where you sit bareback naturally) youd be behind it? Â And why do you shim? Â If the gullet is too big why not get the correct gullet size and not shim? Â This is all so confusing to me. Â
You need to speak with Brian and Tracy they explain it so well.
The short version is Martin builds the bigger gullet to fit behind the shoulder this allowing freedom of the shoulder therefore increasing stride, increasing muscle mass (most horses experience atrophy due to ill fitting saddles).
Most people buy a saddle that will fit a horse once completely filled out no atrophy and will shim till the muscle has filled in the atrophy.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 333
| Explained to me that you're trying to fit the rib cage area of the horse and the front can be shimmed to fill in the more narrow part of the horse (front part of the saddle). They say to go behind the shoulders to have a free shoulder. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1115
Location: Arkansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 7:48 PM
Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM
To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end..Â
Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide.
Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars.
If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle.
If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock.
You're right.. It could, if it has too much bridging(rock) But, if it has too much bridging and is rocking and the back end is up in the air, it is not distributing the pressure evenly. I just always wonder how many ropers have a 9 or a 10 inch gullet.. Why is it that only barrel horses seem to need them? Most roping saddles fit a whole lot of horses, and fit them well.. It seems to me that if anybody needed a saddle that put even pressure on a horses back it would be a calf roper a team roper or a steer tripper but, I honestly don't know of any that have more than a 7 wide at the most. My husbands horse stand 15.2 and weighs 1,350 and he steer trips on him.. He uses a 7 wide through the gullet.. We raised heading horses and raised some big ones, two won the PRCA/AQHA Heading Horse of the Year at the NFR and we never had one use anything wider than a 7.
You can order a 6 3/4 or a 7 wide and get the "flat bar" Crown C if your horse has a flat back and I think it would more than likely fit, but, I don't think you would ever need a 8,9 or 10 wide. Like I said it is just my opinion.. :-) | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Ethel - 2014-10-23 8:47 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 7:48 PM
Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM
To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end..Â
Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide.
Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars.
If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle.
If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock.
You're right.. It could, if it has too much bridging (rock ) But, if it has too much bridging and is rocking and the back end is up in the air, it is not distributing the pressure evenly. I just always wonder how many ropers have a 9 or a 10 inch gullet.. Why is it that only barrel horses seem to need them? Most roping saddles fit a whole lot of horses, and fit them well.. It seems to me that if anybody needed a saddle that put even pressure on a horses back it would be a calf roper a team roper or a steer tripper but, I honestly don't know of any that have more than a 7 wide at the most. My husbands horse stand 15.2 and weighs 1,350 and he steer trips on him.. He uses a 7 wide through the gullet.. We raised heading horses and raised some big ones, two won the PRCA/AQHA Heading Horse of the Year at the NFR and we never had one use anything wider than a 7.
You can order a 6 3/4 or a 7 wide and get the "flat bar" Crown C if your horse has a flat back and I think it would more than likely fit, but, I don't think you would ever need a 8,9 or 10 wide. Like I said it is just my opinion.. :- )
If you look at a roping saddle versus a barrel saddle you will see the angle of the bars is much wider in the roping saddle and it has nothing to do with the gullet.
Martin doesn't use this philosophy so they can't be compared.
My average built horse wears a 10 regular bar crown c, my wide mutton withered horse wears a 11 flat tree, it is the only saddle that doesn't sore her up or cause atrophy. Neither horse is shimmed.
Martin is not for everybody, but it does work for me. Also there are not many saddle companies that offer a flat bar. Martin allows for a lot of choices, instead of one tree to fit a flat backed horse such as Caldwell, Sloan, Melta Brown.
I have also noticed the English world is now promoting the same philosophy as Martin, placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this is done with a special cinch. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
Location: Illinois | Thanks for all the info. I don't think my horse has a terrible flat or wide back. I took a couple pics of the saddle on her without a pad. I tried slipping my hand under the saddle with it sitting behind the shoulder and I couldn't get my hand under it but it wasn't popping up in the back either. What do you guys think of the fit?
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2014-10-23 21.11.46.jpg (99KB - 211 downloads)
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| ShortyHorse11 - 2014-10-23 9:07 PM
Thanks for all the info. I don't think my horse has a terrible flat or wide back. I took a couple pics of the saddle on her without a pad. I tried slipping my hand under the saddle with it sitting behind the shoulder and I couldn't get my hand under it but it wasn't popping up in the back either. What do you guys think of the fit?
Call Martin saddlery ask to speak to brian or Tracy, also ask about their loaner program, they will send you saddles to try my understanding free of charge to try to ensure you get the right saddle for both you and your horse. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
Location: Illinois | cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 9:10 PM
ShortyHorse11 - 2014-10-23 9:07 PM
Thanks for all the info. I don't think my horse has a terrible flat or wide back. I took a couple pics of the saddle on her without a pad. I tried slipping my hand under the saddle with it sitting behind the shoulder and I couldn't get my hand under it but it wasn't popping up in the back either. What do you guys think of the fit?
Call Martin saddlery ask to speak to brian or Tracy, also ask about their loaner program, they will send you saddles to try my understanding free of charge to try to ensure you get the right saddle for both you and your horse.
I will have to do that. I have gone through so many saddles I would like to finally get one that fits! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1115
Location: Arkansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 9:01 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 8:47 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 7:48 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end.. Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide. Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars. If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle. If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock. You're right.. It could, if it has too much bridging (rock ) But, if it has too much bridging and is rocking and the back end is up in the air, it is not distributing the pressure evenly. I just always wonder how many ropers have a 9 or a 10 inch gullet.. Why is it that only barrel horses seem to need them? Most roping saddles fit a whole lot of horses, and fit them well.. It seems to me that if anybody needed a saddle that put even pressure on a horses back it would be a calf roper a team roper or a steer tripper but, I honestly don't know of any that have more than a 7 wide at the most. My husbands horse stand 15.2 and weighs 1,350 and he steer trips on him.. He uses a 7 wide through the gullet.. We raised heading horses and raised some big ones, two won the PRCA/AQHA Heading Horse of the Year at the NFR and we never had one use anything wider than a 7. You can order a 6 3/4 or a 7 wide and get the "flat bar" Crown C if your horse has a flat back and I think it would more than likely fit, but, I don't think you would ever need a 8,9 or 10 wide. Like I said it is just my opinion.. :- ) If you look at a roping saddle versus a barrel saddle you will see the angle of the bars is much wider in the roping saddle and it has nothing to do with the gullet. Martin doesn't use this philosophy so they can't be compared. My average built horse wears a 10 regular bar crown c, my wide mutton withered horse wears a 11 flat tree, it is the only saddle that doesn't sore her up or cause atrophy. Neither horse is shimmed. Martin is not for everybody, but it does work for me. Also there are not many saddle companies that offer a flat bar. Martin allows for a lot of choices, instead of one tree to fit a flat backed horse such as Caldwell, Sloan, Melta Brown. I have also noticed the English world is now promoting the same philosophy as Martin, placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this is done with a special cinch.
I understand.. :-) I love the way a roping saddle fits my horses and I have two completely different built horses.. One is more thoroughbred built and one is more cutting/roping horse built and it fits both of them. They both have a full sweat on their backs with it and have never been sore. I also have a Crown C that I rode for a while that I loved the way it rode but, it left dry spots on both of them.. I guess I had the wrong gullet width or needed the flatter bars for my FDD mare.. It was a 7 wide. I just need a saddle that will fit more than 1 horse. | |
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | I recently bought a 10" gullet crown c after riding it for a few days on my shooting horse. The saddle I was riding him in fit pretty well, he had a nice even sweat pattern & it wasn't tight on him BUT you always had to lunge him before getting on as there was a good hump in his back every day when you saddled. When I put the crown c on him he walked off quiet with no hump in him, have not had to lunge him once since switching saddles. I've also noticed a big difference in his stride, he's changed from a short strided choppy trot to a long full stride. He's also really started stretching out at a run instead of the shorter stride he always had on the front. I've put it on a few other horses this week, some it's going to work for & some it's not. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| SaraJean - 2014-10-23 9:41 PM
I recently bought a 10" gullet crown c after riding it for a few days on my shooting horse. The saddle I was riding him in fit pretty well, he had a nice even sweat pattern & it wasn't tight on him BUT you always had to lunge him before getting on as there was a good hump in his back every day when you saddled. When I put the crown c on him he walked off quiet with no hump in him, have not had to lunge him once since switching saddles. I've also noticed a big difference in his stride, he's changed from a short strided choppy trot to a long full stride. He's also really started stretching out at a run instead of the shorter stride he always had on the front. I've put it on a few other horses this week, some it's going to work for & some it's not. Â
I had the exact same experience with my flat backed size 11 horse, she was humpy, cold backed, flinch when cinched, even flinched when I would place a saddle on her back,
My horse is a completely different, with the crown c, head low, no hump, no flinch.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Ethel - 2014-10-23 9:19 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 9:01 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 8:47 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 7:48 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end.. Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide. Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars. If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle. If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock. You're right.. It could, if it has too much bridging (rock ) But, if it has too much bridging and is rocking and the back end is up in the air, it is not distributing the pressure evenly. I just always wonder how many ropers have a 9 or a 10 inch gullet.. Why is it that only barrel horses seem to need them? Most roping saddles fit a whole lot of horses, and fit them well.. It seems to me that if anybody needed a saddle that put even pressure on a horses back it would be a calf roper a team roper or a steer tripper but, I honestly don't know of any that have more than a 7 wide at the most. My husbands horse stand 15.2 and weighs 1,350 and he steer trips on him.. He uses a 7 wide through the gullet.. We raised heading horses and raised some big ones, two won the PRCA/AQHA Heading Horse of the Year at the NFR and we never had one use anything wider than a 7. You can order a 6 3/4 or a 7 wide and get the "flat bar" Crown C if your horse has a flat back and I think it would more than likely fit, but, I don't think you would ever need a 8,9 or 10 wide. Like I said it is just my opinion.. :- ) If you look at a roping saddle versus a barrel saddle you will see the angle of the bars is much wider in the roping saddle and it has nothing to do with the gullet. Martin doesn't use this philosophy so they can't be compared. My average built horse wears a 10 regular bar crown c, my wide mutton withered horse wears a 11 flat tree, it is the only saddle that doesn't sore her up or cause atrophy. Neither horse is shimmed. Martin is not for everybody, but it does work for me. Also there are not many saddle companies that offer a flat bar. Martin allows for a lot of choices, instead of one tree to fit a flat backed horse such as Caldwell, Sloan, Melta Brown. I have also noticed the English world is now promoting the same philosophy as Martin, placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this is done with a special cinch.
My experience with crown c is a flat bar will fit even a horse with high wither.
I find a horse whose back ties in low to the wither (sway backed looking) is what the regular bar fits best.
I also find most horses are a 9.5, my 4 yr old is a 9.5, I borrowed a friends to try, so I am debating on getting a 10 and shimming or a 9.5 (this seems to fit my younger horses fairly well) and if she fills out more shimming the 11 to fit.
I have realized that there is not a one saddle fits all. Luckily I am drawn to big shouldered flat backed horses, so I can get a few saddles and fit most horses well | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 8:01 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 8:47 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-10-23 7:48 PM Ethel - 2014-10-23 6:03 PM To be honest and in my opinion(which you can take or leave), it is more about the bars than the gullet. You can make a saddle with a gullet width of 6 3/4 fit a Clydesdale if the bars are flat and wide enough.. Most all of the pro calf ropers like the Billy Don Hogg calf roping saddles.. They are the Rolls Royce of saddles to them.. They are all 6 1/2 in the gullet..So are Howard Council's. Those calf roping horses are not any wider or bigger than most barrel horses.. If your saddle is rocking up in the back end it is more than likely too wide in the front end.. Your comment about the saddle rocking forward being too wide. Not necessarily if the horse has a fairly flat back the saddle may have too much rock in the bars. If you are interested in crown c, speak with Brian or Tracy and learn the philosophy behind the saddle. If your horse does have a flat back you will need to custom order a flat bar crown c, as their regular tree has a lot of rock. You're right.. It could, if it has too much bridging (rock ) But, if it has too much bridging and is rocking and the back end is up in the air, it is not distributing the pressure evenly. I just always wonder how many ropers have a 9 or a 10 inch gullet.. Why is it that only barrel horses seem to need them? Most roping saddles fit a whole lot of horses, and fit them well.. It seems to me that if anybody needed a saddle that put even pressure on a horses back it would be a calf roper a team roper or a steer tripper but, I honestly don't know of any that have more than a 7 wide at the most. My husbands horse stand 15.2 and weighs 1,350 and he steer trips on him.. He uses a 7 wide through the gullet.. We raised heading horses and raised some big ones, two won the PRCA/AQHA Heading Horse of the Year at the NFR and we never had one use anything wider than a 7. You can order a 6 3/4 or a 7 wide and get the "flat bar" Crown C if your horse has a flat back and I think it would more than likely fit, but, I don't think you would ever need a 8,9 or 10 wide. Like I said it is just my opinion.. :- ) If you look at a roping saddle versus a barrel saddle you will see the angle of the bars is much wider in the roping saddle and it has nothing to do with the gullet. Martin doesn't use this philosophy so they can't be compared. My average built horse wears a 10 regular bar crown c, my wide mutton withered horse wears a 11 flat tree, it is the only saddle that doesn't sore her up or cause atrophy. Neither horse is shimmed. Martin is not for everybody, but it does work for me. Also there are not many saddle companies that offer a flat bar. Martin allows for a lot of choices, instead of one tree to fit a flat backed horse such as Caldwell, Sloan, Melta Brown. I have also noticed the English world is now promoting the same philosophy as Martin, placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this is done with a special cinch.
The person who said that by placing a western saddle back far enough to free the shoulder causes the rider to miss sitting in the center of gravity on the horse, right behind the withers, was right on. I wish someone would invent an english type saddle with swells and a cantle and a horn- that you can place behind the shoulders and not dig into their hip- I think the Charmayne Scamper saddle design achieves this, it's just that I can't get those trees to fit my horses. Saddle fit- what an ongoing dilemma.......
Edited by trickster j 2014-10-23 10:20 PM
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | For those of you riding the bigger gullets do you feel like you are sitting on a 55 gallon barrel? I have an 8.5" gullet and feel like I have a hard time using my legs. I'm short so that doesn't help but that's the one thing I hate about the saddle. I have a new horse and this saddle is way to big. Rolls big time. No muscle atrophy. I've considered getting a smaller gullet crown c but hate the "riding a barrel" feeling I have now. | |
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