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 Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
  
Location: the high desert | So this is something that has been bugging me and has bugged me for quite some time. I see this all the time, people post the pedigree of something and ask for opinions on it and if it isnt jam packed with the "whose who" of the barrel racing world or is AAA and AAAT bred out the butt, most people will say "i wouldnt buy it" or "it aint worth the time" or "i dont recognize anything on the papers, so i wouldnt buy it". It isnt just on here that i have noticed it, i have noticed it at barrel races as well.
I will never forget over hearing a conversation at a barrel race. This girl was sitting in the stands and had a couple hours before ran a really nice pattern on a really nice horse. These other girls came up to her and started talking to her saying what a nice horse, great run, etc. etc. Then they asked how was her horse bred. She said oh, he was bred to be a ranch horse he is all foundation bred. These other girls went oh...and walked away. As they past me i could hear them snickering and saying who would waste there time on something bred like that... Really?! You just watched this horse lay down an awesome run, were congratulating her on it, then find out its not "bred" for barrels so suddenly it aint worth a penny?...
Not everyone can afford a horse that is packed to the gills with AAA and AAAT race horses and Is by Dash Ta Fame, frenchmans guy, firewater flit, streak of fling, judge cash or some other multi million dollar sire. So if you cant afford something like that then what? You might as well not even bother trying to futurity or rodeo with your "non name brand" bred horse, give up your dreams, pack up and go home and only stick to gymkhanas or local jackpots or playdays because your horse isn't "bred" for barrels. A horse bred like that isn't worth the time, effort and money it takes to futurity and rodeo. Even if that horse has the text book conformation you look for when buying a barrel horse, has the heart and try every great barrel horse needs, is so athletic it gives you goose bumps, but it doesn't have "name brand" papers so it just isnt going to be worth the time to train it for barrels.
I know not EVERY barrel racer thinks like this, but more often than not this is the kind of answer i get. It is so discouraging to hear/see this over and over again. I haven't even started barrel racing, but im to the point that im not sure if i even want to. Im not saying that everyone should sell there expensive prospects and only buy a "non name brand" bred horse because others cant afford those expensive prospects so we shouldn't make them "feel bad". Good for you if you can afford a prospect with a designer pedigree, i wish i could. As a person sitting on the sidelines looking in, the message i get is if you cant afford a designer bred barrel horse you shouldn't even bother. These are my feelings, i know not everyone sees it this way, but this is the taste i have in my mouth and its bitter. Im sure that there are other horse sports that are the same way, i just happen to be interested in barrel racing.
P.S. i can not tell you how many times i read, re read, re re read over this and how long it took me to get the courage.. or stupidity.. to hit that submit button... Im hoping im not the only one who feels this way....or maybe its a good thing if im the only one who feels this way, maybe i have the wrong idea...  | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Do you want barrel racing to become "elite" or not? | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Why are you letting this bother you? I could care less who is riding what, I just do my own thing and enjoy myself, I dont care if they like my horses are not and I sure as heck dont care to hear others opinion's on what is better at running barrels. stop worrying about what other's think, most of the ones that shoot their mouths off are the ones that dont know what the heck they are talking about. | |
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 Night Watchman
Posts: 5516
Location: Central Montana | There are pedigree snobs in every discipline. To me papers are only worth something (that something being potential) if you are looking at unbroke babies, then they are just a jumping off point. It isn't until you get one really good and broke and started that you will know if it is going to fulfill that potential.
I always like to use the son of Raise Your Glass we owned as an example. Bred to death and one of the most worthless for "want to run" and athleticism that I've ever seen.
Trying to get my foot in the door in the reining world. Bloodline snobs there too. I watched the sale preview at the big show in Las Vegas a couple of months ago. I made it through about the first 5 babies they brought in. Bob Loomis was doing the announcing and went on and on and on about what each of the "big" names on the pedigrees had done and won. I figured if you were going to a big sale where the horses were going to be bringing BIG BUCKS and you didn't know the history of the blooldines on the horses that were selling, you probably shouldn't be thinking of spending your money there. | |
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  Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Meh...I love pedigrees. I feel like I'm reading a book when I look at them and love knowing info. of all the old bloodlines. Many lines are proven and I would tend to want to spend my money on something that has the best shot that I can afford.....and, truthfully, I could care less what people think of my horses papers. If they are my horse, there is a reason for that....I like it, it won't kill me, it's fast etc.......so, I really don't think you should let this bother you at all. It's all about fun, enjoying yourself. Don't allow it to bother you and be a competition and it won't. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Bloodlines are great. On a prospect it gives you an idea of what to expect. BUT it comes down to being a horseman and knowing what has potential or not. That's why I just sold my grandson of Royal Shakem for a registerable cowbred gelding. Why? Bc the cowbred blew the doors off of the Royal Shakem gelding. 1/4 of the time on barrels and running almost a full second faster. Having a certain bloodline doesnt win money.....performance does and thays why i sent him down the road. On a finished winning horse....I could care less how it's bred. Unless it's a mare then I think about it a little harder :) | |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Hmm... do i want barrel racing to become "elite"... If it means that only the rich of the rich can barrel race for big money then no, no i don't.
I don't know why i let this bother me. I know it shouldn't and i know i should just ignore it since its not something that will ever change, but it does bother me and makes me feel like i have no chance in he** and i dont even have big dreams. I just hope that one day instead of sitting on the sidelines (mainly due to my weight), i can actually compete in a jackpot. A real wild and crazy dream of mine is to actually be able to compete in a amateur rodeo. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| You are missing the point on pedigrees.
The pedigree will give you an idea on what the odds are for the horse become anything.
There are many cow bred horses that make a successful crossover into the barrel pen.
Sun frost sire of frenchmans guy, PC frenchmans Hayday, and I can't think of the others right now, but he is a well know primarily in the working cow/cutting industry.
Firewater flit is flit bar, another cattle background
Peptoboonsmal, high brow cat, smart little Lena, and some of the descendants who are standing have proven themselves in their own discipline I would consider using as an outcross.
I look at the first two generations for money earners in any discipline and producers. If neither horse has done anything in the last two generations, I suspect the cross is a dud, not all crosses work well. I have learned a line bred smart little Lena can produce too many duds.
Dash ta fame is AAA, now please take a direct dash ta fame pedigree and try to sell him to the top cutter and let us know the response.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| cheryl makofka - 2014-11-02 8:37 PM
You are missing the point on pedigrees.
The pedigree will give you an idea on what the odds are for the horse become anything.
There are many cow bred horses that make a successful crossover into the barrel pen.
Sun frost sire of frenchmans guy, PC frenchmans Hayday, and I can't think of the others right now, but he is a well know primarily in the working cow/cutting industry.
Firewater flit is flit bar, another cattle background
Peptoboonsmal, high brow cat, smart little Lena, and some of the descendants who are standing have proven themselves in their own discipline I would consider using as an outcross.
I look at the first two generations for money earners in any discipline and producers. If neither horse has done anything in the last two generations, I suspect the cross is a dud, not all crosses work well. I have learned a line bred smart little Lena can produce too many duds.
Dash ta fame is AAA, now please take a direct dash ta fame pedigree and try to sell him to the top cutter and let us know the response.
I agree with all but this..."The pedigree will give you an idea on what the odds are for the horse become anything."
The top trainers are paid big money to train certain breeds and spread their name keeping these breeds at the top, not that I have a problem with that as it keeps some great studs at a very affordable price. | |
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 I am Woman hear me Roar
Posts: 3395
Location: Choctaw, Oklahoma | Follow your dream!!!
I'm between the mindset that you shouldn't let it bother you and there, are pedigree snobs out there. I learned my pedigree lesson in high school. I rode a no papered 200 dollar kill pen appaloosa and knocked the socks off of many girls with 10,000+ horses. I got asked all the time how he was bred and they hated knowing that they didn't know what, was, whooping them. But he had heart and a ton of athleticism. My main gelding now is foundation bred thru and thru. No race blood anywhere and I'd take 10 more just like him for the talent and willingness to try.
I am fortunate enough to be in an area with many different styles of competitors, and I have a few friends I talk to. Just steer clear of the negative Nellies and enjoy the ride! | |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | You just proved my point... all those studs you mentioned, I (and many others) cant afford to buy direct sons and daughters of theirs, I cant afford to buy a grandson of them that is out of a proven son of theirs (like firewater on the rocks, pc frenchmans hayday, lions share of fame etc.) So im left with the choice of either buying a great great grandson of them out of a stud that is not proven or to go looking for "other" bloodlines. Which then falls into the category of what i mentioned before that so many say, "everything that is "recognizable" is to far back to count, i wouldn't buy it." Which leads me right back to this post.. Obviously a top cutter would have no use for a son of Dash Ta fame. It doesn't matter whether it barrels, cutting, reining etc. not everyone can afford the top bloodlines, so again does that mean that i shouldn't even bother trying since i can only afford a great grandson of them that is out of a un-proven son? | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Itsme - 2014-11-02 8:43 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-11-02 8:37 PM
You are missing the point on pedigrees.
The pedigree will give you an idea on what the odds are for the horse become anything.
There are many cow bred horses that make a successful crossover into the barrel pen.
Sun frost sire of frenchmans guy, PC frenchmans Hayday, and I can't think of the others right now, but he is a well know primarily in the working cow/cutting industry.
Firewater flit is flit bar, another cattle background
Peptoboonsmal, high brow cat, smart little Lena, and some of the descendants who are standing have proven themselves in their own discipline I would consider using as an outcross.
I look at the first two generations for money earners in any discipline and producers. If neither horse has done anything in the last two generations, I suspect the cross is a dud, not all crosses work well. I have learned a line bred smart little Lena can produce too many duds.
Dash ta fame is AAA, now please take a direct dash ta fame pedigree and try to sell him to the top cutter and let us know the response.
I agree with all but this..."The pedigree will give you an idea on what the odds are for the horse become anything."
The top trainers are paid big money to train certain breeds and spread their name keeping these breeds at the top, not that I have a problem with that as it keeps some great studs at a very affordable price.
The top trainers cannot make a slow horse win, trainers can only do with the whatever the ability the horse has.
Those trainers also have unlimited horses so if one doesn't cut it, another horse takes the spot. I would love to know how many horses get culled each year.
Read the book secretariat, pedigrees were being examined before secretariat was a thought, those race track owners, and trainers study pedigrees to a science to identify the weak crosses and the strong crosses.
Genetics play an important role especially when you start looking at the large heart gene, this is why secretariat was known as a broodmare sire.
To the op Dr Nick Bar is also one who is not a AAA stud who has produced champions in the barrel pen
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-11-02 9:29 PM
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | The point IS.....if a person asks the question regarding bloodlines, etc....they are ASKING for opinions.....Most here (on BHW) are not going to blow sunshine and butterflies up your butt.....If they wouldn't buy, ride, train, or use certain pedigrees.....THAT is their opinion.....and just THAT...an opinion. It shouldn't dampen or make a bit of difference to you or anyone else. | |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | very true very true... | |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Iwish - 2014-11-02 9:25 PM You just proved my point... all those studs you mentioned, I (and many others) cant afford to buy direct sons and daughters of theirs, I cant afford to buy a grandson of them that is out of a proven son of theirs (like firewater on the rocks, pc frenchmans hayday, lions share of fame etc.) So im left with the choice of either buying a great great grandson of them out of a stud that is not proven or to go looking for "other" bloodlines. Which then falls into the category of what i mentioned before that so many say, "everything that is "recognizable" is to far back to count, i wouldn't buy it." Which leads me right back to this post.. Obviously a top cutter would have no use for a son of Dash Ta fame. It doesn't matter whether it barrels, cutting, reining etc. not everyone can afford the top bloodlines, so again does that mean that i shouldn't even bother trying since i can only afford a great grandson of them that is out of a un-proven son?
Absolutely you should follow your own path. Some love the trending bloodlines and some like to step out of the box. Heck look at HotShot. he was a box all by himself | |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Very true S.G. I guess I am looking at this in the wrong light. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| There ARE pedigree snobs in every discipline. I was told by someone here that my mare isn't bred nice enough to breed (her sire only has ONE ROM & superior and her grandsire on the bottom was a halter/race horse who didn't have a high enough speed index, never mind he's also on Dr Nick Bar's papers). My mare has great conformation, a good mind, $$ earnings in NRCHA, heart enough for five horses, and is pretty enough to get compliments from strangers everywhere we go. So you know what? I bred her to a proven barrel horse sire. And next year an up and comer. She's a paint, and any time a paint person sees her pedigree they say it's nice. There just are a bunch of opinionated people on this board who don't know what they don't know.
I am grateful when people reveal themselves to be shallow and rude like the girls you saw. It shows me who NOT to make friends with. Saves me the time. LOL! Do your own thing.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Just follow your dreams and get that barrel horse that works for you and stay away from the negative people, and you will enjoy your self...  | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| SG. - 2014-11-02 9:40 PM
Iwish - 2014-11-02 9:25 PM You just proved my point... all those studs you mentioned, I (and many others) cant afford to buy direct sons and daughters of theirs, I cant afford to buy a grandson of them that is out of a proven son of theirs (like firewater on the rocks, pc frenchmans hayday, lions share of fame etc.) So im left with the choice of either buying a great great grandson of them out of a stud that is not proven or to go looking for "other" bloodlines. Which then falls into the category of what i mentioned before that so many say, "everything that is "recognizable" is to far back to count, i wouldn't buy it." Which leads me right back to this post.. Obviously a top cutter would have no use for a son of Dash Ta fame. It doesn't matter whether it barrels, cutting, reining etc. not everyone can afford the top bloodlines, so again does that mean that i shouldn't even bother trying since i can only afford a great grandson of them that is out of a un-proven son?
Absolutely you should follow your own path. Some love the trending bloodlines and some like to step out of the box. Heck look at HotShot. he was a box all by himself
Yep. Recognize any big names here?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gills+bay+boy | |
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Blessed
Location: Here | Iwish - 2014-11-02 9:51 PM
Very true S.G. I guess I am looking at this in the wrong light.
Remember 1/2 empty or 1/2 full. the choice is yours.  | |
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