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Location: Minnesota | So I got a wonderful chance to go to the AQHA world show for my first time ever, Very excited. My mom has a sorting and Penning Mare that got enough points with her trainer to go, So we thought it would be fun to go. So after all the entry fees were paid we hoped on a plane and flew down.
OMG I was amazed at all the horse so beautiful I was in love.
But that faded when i went to the sorting and penning side of things. The first was how rough they were being on the cattle I know Back home in Minnesota that you can't slam the cows into the pens and you can slap the cows or run them over, But thats all I saw Running cows into the fences one girl actually ran the cow so hard it moved the whole fence. She called for a rerun and got it! all because the fence had moved. WTF and then another team goes into sort, however the cow falls down in the sorting pen so they stop wait for the cow to get back up and when it did he was hurt limping very easy to spot can barely run. So they stopped and did the right thing then asked for a reride and the judge said NO. WTF are they playing favorites or something.There is a huge family that competes down there and one of the family members would stand above the cattle and direct them to where the cows are. I am pretty sure thats cheating, I told them that, what they are doing isn't fair because the other teams don't have that advantage. I am so discouraged that i don't think that I will ever come back, I don't think i want too. I chase cows all the time, But you have rules and if you rough the cattle you get dq. So after all that I went and talked to the judges and said that i was really disappointed that this had happened and I had questions to be asked and the judges were nice and all he said was we just got a bad judge. WTF so your telling me next time pitch a fit and i might get my way. he also said that some judges just don't have enough BALLs to stand up to some of these people.This brings me to do you think the judges are qualified to make such big decisions are are most of them on someones payroll? Or more importantly are we training our society to be pushy to get what we want and be rude so we get what we want?
What are all of your thoughts on this. Should i send a letter to AQHA? I know personally I won't be back. Unless I am barrel racing. at least then I am only beating a clock.
Edited by Sebastian9387 2014-11-12 11:28 AM
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
   
Location: In the Hills of Texas | AQHA and Politics have been the norm for as long as I can remember and I started to show at AQHA shows when I was 6 years old so that makes it 58 years and is the reason I started to run barrels. |
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Location: Minnesota | First off Congrats for Competing for 58 years what an accomplishment. I was afraid of that. However the cruel treatment of the cattle is what bothered me the most. and AQHA is huge on animal well being. SO why aren't we looking out for the cattle. And on top of that they are not cheap to replace. |
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  Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | I sort and pen as well as run barrels...I qualified for the AQHA World in Open Penning in 1994...I actually quit running barrels for several years to go to all the big pennings because I had such a nice horse for it then....now, sorting is more popular around me....but I can tell you when you are working with partners running for a World Championship title, you do what it takes to win.....and not all cattle cooperate and go the direction you have planned, so it's part of the game, just like roping and dogging....and unfortunately, the cattle sometimes do take a beating, but so do the horses...I have had many cows flat run into my horse as I was trying to get them turned, that's why it takes a gutty, quick horse to win at this event...
Kathi is right...when there is a judge to make a decision, politics can play a role...even in any of the timed events, if there is a discrepency on a rule, you have to live by the judges decision, good or bad....
I would let it go....you can't save the world....you definitely won't change the contestant's strategy and you probably won't like this answer, but it's a slam jam event and no one intentionally tries to rough up the cattle, but they do push the limits to win and it's a fine line to walk...and I can tell you if I see a cow getting loose, I'll absolutely jam him into the fence to get him to turn back...it's not a wimpy event and no one who wants to win the world will have the best interests of the cattle in the forefront of their mind during their run...sorry, just the way it is...now the judges are a whole different story... |
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 Ones with the Hotties
Posts: 1451
Location: Centerburg, OH | congratulations on qualifying!
A letter is better than nothing. I don't think AQHA will ever change. Sorry it was such a disappointing and expensive experience. Your not the only one there numbers have steadily declined. Every one is tired of there crap. But it seams they are to big to really care
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Location: Minnesota | your right it is a slam jam event however you still have to look at the well fare of the animal weather it be horse cow or pig. I agree sometimes things happen. i personally have been DQ before for roughness however mine was little compared to what they did and mine was a accident. But that AQHA judge DQ me for it. and I respected him because I realized I was a bit rough. So i see your point, however I have never been so sick to watch an event as I was there. So maybe I am too soft hearted and your right I will never change the world. But I can try and thats what matters. We should all try in a way because what are we telling our children to look the other way? Just so every one knows it is just an Opinion. |
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Location: Minnesota | Just so everyone knows we did Finnish 11th in the world on one horse and 7th and 6th on two others. So not a bad weekend win wise. |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | When my sister showed AQHA 30 years ago there was a distinct tilt toward fellow judges. Apparently, they watch each other's back. Most of the big time trainers are also judges so the cycle continues. Anything that is judged can be corrupted. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | A friend of mine told me a long time ago to go out and let some cattle kick you and run you over and you will look at cattle differently. LOL
I'm not a penner but I had some people I knew from up North that had won the World and had watched them and like Cindy said..it can get rough when you have rank cattle. I went to a penning where the cattle were worked so much and kept together in their groups of 3 that they did everything pretty much by themselves. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
Location: London Ontario | Wow. I personally disagree with the poster who suggests letting it go. The reason people beat the living poop out of their horses and get away with it is because people "let it go", the reason some of the western pleasure people rip holes in their horses sides due to excessive spurring and get away with it is because people "let it go" the list goes on and on. No you probably wont save the world but I applaud you for asking the judge about it and making sure they know it didn't go un-noticed. I suggest you write a letter to the AQHA, the AQHA magazines, any magazines you can and make a post on the AQHA facebook wall. YES people love to win, YES I love to win, but will I abuse my animals to win? No. Sure I will rough them up when needed but there is a line I will draw. Maybe its just the way I was brought up or my personality, I don't know. But I don't think people who do wrong and shouldn't get away with it. Obviously there is politics in the horse industry and it will never go away, the people with big names and big money usually have an advantage but if everyone just "let it go" the horse industry will continue on its downhill slide. With the amazing programs NRHA, and AQHA has and with the American and whatnot there is no reason to get amazing press and a better name for the horse industry. I don't know, maybe its just personal preference but I think good should win over bad whenever possible. Sorry for rambling and I hope this makes sense ahahah!!! Good luck and keep us updated!!! |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Well, don't think you're immune to incompetence if you're in a speed event....I went to visit some friends that had qualified for the world show in poles, and they were talking about horses having trouble with the 3rd pole, which is unusual....so about halfway through Sr. Poles, they stop the event and measure the pattern. Turns out the 3rd pole was about a foot off.....  . They had already run half the class. Then they announced a little later that the rest of the class decided they would just go ahead and run on the mismeasured pattern, as that's what the first few had to do. I saw several nice pole horses hit that 3rd pole and more that it really messed up their footwork and timing. I was really disappointed that they didn't pull the poles, remeasure and make sure it was correct and then rerun the class! You would think that at that level of competition, they would be more conscientious. I felt bad because it gives OkC a bad name....a bunch were saying they wouldn't be back. It's a shame they aren't more professional about how they run it. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| Sebastian9387 - 2014-11-12 11:14 AM
So I got a wonderful chance to go to the AQHA world show for my first time ever, Very excited. My mom has a sorting and Penning Mare that got enough points with her trainer to go, So we thought it would be fun to go. So after all the entry fees were paid we hoped on a plane and flew down.
OMG I was amazed at all the horse so beautiful I was in love.
But that faded when i went to the sorting and penning side of things. The first was how rough they were being on the cattle I know Back home in Minnesota that you can't slam the cows into the pens and you can slap the cows or run them over, But thats all I saw Running cows into the fences one girl actually ran the cow so hard it moved the whole fence. She called for a rerun and got it! all because the fence had moved. WTF and then another team goes into sort, however the cow falls down in the sorting pen so they stop wait for the cow to get back up and when it did he was hurt limping very easy to spot can barely run. So they stopped and did the right thing then asked for a reride and the judge said NO. WTF are they playing favorites or something.There is a huge family that competes down there and one of the family members would stand above the cattle and direct them to where the cows are. I am pretty sure thats cheating, I told them that, what they are doing isn't fair because the other teams don't have that advantage. I am so discouraged that i don't think that I will ever come back, I don't think i want too. I chase cows all the time, But you have rules and if you rough the cattle you get dq. So after all that I went and talked to the judges and said that i was really disappointed that this had happened and I had questions to be asked and the judges were nice and all he said was we just got a bad judge. WTF so your telling me next time pitch a fit and i might get my way. he also said that some judges just don't have enough BALLs to stand up to some of these people.This brings me to do you think the judges are qualified to make such big decisions are are most of them on someones payroll? Or more importantly are we training our society to be pushy to get what we want and be rude so we get what we want?
What are all of your thoughts on this. Should i send a letter to AQHA? I know personally I won't be back. Unless I am barrel racing. at least then I am only beating a clock.
I understand politics and how aggravating they can be ... however ....
"he also said that some judges just don't have enough BALLs to stand up to some of these people.This brings me to do you think the judges are qualified to make such big decisions are are most of them on someones payroll? Or more importantly are we training our society to be pushy to get what we want and be rude so we get what we want? "
Lumping judges together and saying they are someone's payroll is BS. Please be careful in how you explain yourself. AQHA is a small world as is the sorting/penning/cutting world.
I agree that sometimes things are overlooked due to who is in the pen at the time ... but, that is not always the case. Politics have been around in the horse world forever and aren't going to change overnight. If you do choose to write your letter, be mindful of your language if you are really seeking change.
Just my 2 cents. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Sebastian9387 - 2014-11-12 12:09 PM Just so everyone knows we did Finnish 11th in the world on one horse and 7th and 6th on two others. So not a bad weekend win wise.
Congrats!
It sounds like they had real fresh cattle while at many events the cattle are worked so they aren't so wild..JMO
I foresee in the future there won't be any horse shows as what you seem cruel with the cattle, many other people feel it's cruel to ride a horse let alone show them. It's a slippery slope and it just never stops. |
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Just my two cents......Having been around the penning and sorting world for a VERY long time (qualified horses to the AQHA World Finals twice in the early 90s), I will say that nine times out of ten UNLESS it is a "stand alone" AQHA penning/sorting event, you are going to get a Judge that knows almost NOTHING about penning or judging penning other than what they read in the rule book.
Like Kathy has explained, Penning/sorting cattle can be very cantankerous. What you saw as the penner shoving the cow into the fence could have been that NASTY cow bouncing off of running into the horse. At the high speeds needed to win at that level of competition, there are going to be collisions.
Edited by NJJ 2014-11-12 1:53 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| the judges probably dont know much about penning or sorting.... just like in the cow horse people know how to get a re run if they have a bad cow... i dont blame them id probably do the same thing...
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Sebastian9387 - 2014-11-12 11:14 AM So I got a wonderful chance to go to the AQHA world show for my first time ever, Very excited. My mom has a sorting and Penning Mare that got enough points with her trainer to go, So we thought it would be fun to go. So after all the entry fees were paid we hoped on a plane and flew down. OMG I was amazed at all the horse so beautiful I was in love. But that faded when i went to the sorting and penning side of things. The first was how rough they were being on the cattle I know Back home in Minnesota that you can't slam the cows into the pens and you can slap the cows or run them over, But thats all I saw Running cows into the fences one girl actually ran the cow so hard it moved the whole fence. She called for a rerun and got it! all because the fence had moved. WTF and then another team goes into sort, however the cow falls down in the sorting pen so they stop wait for the cow to get back up and when it did he was hurt limping very easy to spot can barely run. So they stopped and did the right thing then asked for a reride and the judge said NO. WTF are they playing favorites or something.There is a huge family that competes down there and one of the family members would stand above the cattle and direct them to where the cows are. I am pretty sure thats cheating, I told them that, what they are doing isn't fair because the other teams don't have that advantage. I am so discouraged that i don't think that I will ever come back, I don't think i want too. I chase cows all the time, But you have rules and if you rough the cattle you get dq. So after all that I went and talked to the judges and said that i was really disappointed that this had happened and I had questions to be asked and the judges were nice and all he said was we just got a bad judge. WTF so your telling me next time pitch a fit and i might get my way. he also said that some judges just don't have enough BALLs to stand up to some of these people.This brings me to do you think the judges are qualified to make such big decisions are are most of them on someones payroll? Or more importantly are we training our society to be pushy to get what we want and be rude so we get what we want? What are all of your thoughts on this. Should i send a letter to AQHA? I know personally I won't be back. Unless I am barrel racing. at least then I am only beating a clock.
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | dianeguinn - 2014-11-12 12:59 PM Well, don't think you're immune to incompetence if you're in a speed event....I went to visit some friends that had qualified for the world show in poles, and they were talking about horses having trouble with the 3rd pole, which is unusual....so about halfway through Sr. Poles, they stop the event and measure the pattern. Turns out the 3rd pole was about a foot off..... . They had already run half the class. Then they announced a little later that the rest of the class decided they would just go ahead and run on the mismeasured pattern, as that's what the first few had to do. I saw several nice pole horses hit that 3rd pole and more that it really messed up their footwork and timing. I was really disappointed that they didn't pull the poles, remeasure and make sure it was correct and then rerun the class! You would think that at that level of competition, they would be more conscientious. I felt bad because it gives OkC a bad name....a bunch were saying they wouldn't be back. It's a shame they aren't more professional about how they run it.
I would have been livid. The Pole Bending pattern is standard so the whole event should have been run over again. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 501
| No idea what happened but having watched the webcasts of those events, when they bring in really fresh cattle it can look bad in a hurry. Local weekend jackpots on rope cattle are pretty tame compared to those fresh cattle that don't know how to react to horses. It takes very, very little for them to basically run them selves into panels, horses, other cattle which can sure enough look bad. No idea if thats the case here or not.
We actually were at a penning where they brought range cattle in from the sale barn next door. Never been worked on horses, super stressed and wound up. One ran down the arena, tried to jump through the fence but managed to t bone a railroad tie and kill itself on the spot, with no one even pushing it. It was pretty awful but one of those things.
The one AQHA ranch sorting I went to there indeed was a judge brought down from the show ring who had no idea what was going on. He was elderly and
as he talked to us before hand he was clearly telling the rules wrong. The contestants had to get with the show committee before start time to have them review the actual rules.
At one point on very fresh cattle a team had them running and chased their nubmer OVER the panel by the gate. The pens were set up pretty flat so it ended up in the other pen and he let the team continue.
Fun event but that was my experience and just not for me any time soon.
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 Rebel Without a Cause
Posts: 2758
Location: Adopt a homeless pet - www.petfinder.com! | dianeguinn - 2014-11-12 12:59 PM Well, don't think you're immune to incompetence if you're in a speed event....I went to visit some friends that had qualified for the world show in poles, and they were talking about horses having trouble with the 3rd pole, which is unusual....so about halfway through Sr. Poles, they stop the event and measure the pattern. Turns out the 3rd pole was about a foot off..... . They had already run half the class. Then they announced a little later that the rest of the class decided they would just go ahead and run on the mismeasured pattern, as that's what the first few had to do. I saw several nice pole horses hit that 3rd pole and more that it really messed up their footwork and timing. I was really disappointed that they didn't pull the poles, remeasure and make sure it was correct and then rerun the class! You would think that at that level of competition, they would be more conscientious. I felt bad because it gives OkC a bad name....a bunch were saying they wouldn't be back. It's a shame they aren't more professional about how they run it.
Wow, was that this year?? |
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Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | NJJ - 2014-11-12 1:52 PM Just my two cents......Having been around the penning and sorting world for a VERY long time (qualified horses to the AQHA World Finals twice in the early 90s), I will say that nine times out of ten UNLESS it is a "stand alone" AQHA penning/sorting event, you are going to get a Judge that knows almost NOTHING about penning or judging penning other than what they read in the rule book.
Like Kathy has explained, Penning/sorting cattle can be very cantankerous. What you saw as the penner shoving the cow into the fence could have been that NASTY cow bouncing off of running into the horse. At the high speeds needed to win at that level of competition, there are going to be collisions.
Thank you... you pointed it out better....my point was more to what NJJ is saying, either the judges are political, or they don't know enough about the event and it's rules to care.....I said to let it go because I know the judges don't care at all about penning and sorting as an event (just like barrels and poles)...it's like get the timed events out of the way so we can get on to the "real show"...
Also...I've penned enough bad cattle to know how hard to push and when to back off, and you read the cow and only use the amount of force necessary to get it to move the direction and the speed you want, otherwise you risk running over one or losing one.....so I'm going to say that in order to get qualified for the world that most of these competitors can read cattle very well and if they had to be forceful, it's because the cow was also forceful...it's very hard to get an even pen of cattle, especially at the AQHA World....so I know there were some bad cattle...just like at the NFR.. look at the range of cattle they get, and they try to make it as fair as they can, but you work all year to get qualified and you do your best to win with the draw you have, so at that point what do you do with a bad cow?...do you just let him run past you or do you try to stop him by turning him hard into the fence to save your run at the world show?....bad cattle just make the sport look bad because they try you and push you so hard to the point that the only way to work them is to push back with the same force and it isn't pretty...
Sports that involve cattle all deal with this inequity...it's like doctoring a cow in 1000 acres, you just trip him and tie him and doctor him....that's roughing him up too, and these events are sport as an imitation of real life, like ranch rodeos...but I fear that the PETA like people will not see that and either try to turn these sports into a watered down version of real life or try to get them banned....ok, I'm off my soapbox....
p.s...Have you ever seen the AQHA event Colas? (tailing of the bull)....now that's one to write to the AQHA about if you're worried about the cattle...LOL...(look it up on you tune)...yes, it's a real AQHA event....and how do you feel about steer tripping??? And....congratulations to your mom's trainer, it sounds like he had a good week there, so she has to be proud of her horse....don't let some bad cattle ruin your week...
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