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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
   
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.
Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
Edited by Fairweather 2015-01-27 12:02 PM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Getting a little forward will make them reach out and run flatter. Getting a lot forward will make them heavy on the front and impact their stride, as well as leave you with no real control of their body. You want your butt down and driving them forward, even when you're "up" which is easy to show but hard to explain.  |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Sorry, I know I'm not who you requested. I'm just excited to see real conversations on here again, |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Three 4 Luck - 2015-01-26 4:10 PM Sorry, I know I'm not who you requested. I'm just excited to see real conversations on here again,
No, I love the input!! |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Three 4 Luck - 2015-01-26 4:09 PM Getting a little forward will make them reach out and run flatter. Getting a lot forward will make them heavy on the front and impact their stride, as well as leave you with no real control of their body. You want your butt down and driving them forward, even when you're "up" which is easy to show but hard to explain.
It's hard to find that happy medium between sitting and up....I work two point quite a bit to work on balance but the concept of a driving butt while running is something I'm still trying to get my head around and feel.
At times it's almost you get get them in gear or set and then follow instead of keep pushing....If that makes sense. Whereas in other disciplines it seems you ride more stride for stride.
Edited by Fairweather 2015-01-26 4:27 PM
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | We like to engage the hind and allow the energy to come from behind.. which gives us more control of the horse as a whole.. they also are lighter in front....if you stay centered and balanced and ask with your seat the horse will use his hind. If you lean forward he will go on front end and reach instead of drive and you end up leaving the hind part unengaged and basically riding 2 parts of the horse.. when hinds engaged you have a roll effect.. You can feel the energy coming from behind and rolling to front..
In all areas we want to ride the hind. lil tweaks for other movements yes..
If you think about it.... energy coming from hind and you give a halfhalt the horse will gather himself up better and be collected easier.. and use his back and you wont have to force his head in a frame and hollow his back out.he will therefore step under himself and engage.
once you achieve that you can move that horse anywhere.. in half passes for instance.. his motor is his hind end and legs.. we guide the front with our leg seat etc.. but the motor is his hind.
With Jumpers we do lean a tad forward but not our center. we still have to remain balanced for the horse over his body.. with barrel racing I think you still should stay centered to not lose the hindend. but possibly sit lighter then when time to rate sit deeper and drive with hind around supporting the ribs .you wouldnt want to pull front around , you want to ride the hind..i think....
I do not train Barrel horses but my philosophy is.. once you have the horses hind end engaged you can do anything..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 6:39 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I am not good enough to execute it but my trainer is forever trying to get me to drive with my hips out of a turn- one day :). |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | another thought is when asking to canter if you cant get horse to step under or engage then do some lateral work within a big circle... this is of course for horses capable..to get hind more active you can ask a bit with a taptap tap with heel or bumper spurs.. slightly but quick and effective.. and if horse doesnt respond then tap with a whip on top of tail area make him more aware of his hind. make him activate it. this is just steps to get more active over time. some horses will be lazy and we tend to allow them to and just ride frontendy..then you use to much hand or ride the head. But iike I Mentioned I dont know alot about barrel training .I assume there is many ways to do it.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 5:57 PM
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Bibliafarm - 2015-01-26 5:49 PM
another thought is when asking to canter if you cant get horse to step under or engage then do some lateral work within a big circle... this is of course for horses capable..to get hind more active you can ask a bit with a taptap tap with heel or bumper spurs.. slightly but quick and effective..  and if horse doesnt respond then tap with a whip on top of tail area make him more aware of his hind. make him activate it. this is just steps to get more active over time. some horses will be lazy and we tend to allow them to and  just ride frontendy..then you use to much hand or ride the head.  But iike I Mentioned I dont know alot about barrel training .I assume there is many ways to do it.
I could not agree more with you Bib. If you can't control the rib cage and the rear end you have no control of the frontend. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Great discussion. 
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Biblia is correct in theory...
Let's start here and see if I can explain what we need in a barrel horse and why my program is what it is... I say MY program, because everyone does something a little different.
I grew up in the cutting horse industry... Rode horses for an awesome reining horse trainer that won a lot... and I took dressage lessons when I was in my late 30's early 40's from a lady that has done really well in her discipline... All those disciplines have worked great in my program because I feel a barrel horse needs to have a piece of all these disciplines...
They need to work on their own like a cutting horse, they need to be light and responsive like a reining horse, have a strong top line, allow you to control their body and keep contact with their mouth (without getting stiff) like a dressage horse. When you combine those qualities together you get an awesome horse, with lots of body control, great top-line, you have the ability to move them at speed when needed and yet they can work on their own. Then you add racehorse speed. Do all those things and you have the PERFECT barrel horse!
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMO |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Grinandbearit... |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | agree.... let the horse do the work yet do it effortlessly .. it takes time to achieve all that but its well worth it.. takes strength (horses) and your patience and lightness with your hands .. develop the horse properly..study the muscles and dynamics and think about it.. watch them move .
do a lil homework to try to figure out the best way to achieve.. if thats your end goal . some its not which i understand.. all programs are differant as grin said..
quiet aids but effective, soft hands and steady so horse knows it can trust those hands to not rip their mouth... and time to develop the horse and muscles play a huge role in their progress.. next month im heading to Oklahoma to ride some cutting horses IM excited!! I never have. so should be a experience. I have rode reiners a lil bit which are fun to.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 6:54 PM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 6:36 PM The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMO
That drives me insane. I've had horses that were naturally noodle necked and they are a PIA to fix and keep fixed, so why in the world would anyone try to make a horse be that way? |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Fairweather - 2015-01-26 3:39 PM
 Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.Â
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.Â
 Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?Â
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
Â
How do you find the happy medium between sitting deep in your saddle and still urging your horse forward for the run?
The first thing you need to do is lots of "home"work. If you have never felt a well collected horse that is round and supple and has a lot of energy in his step then it is hard to put into print what to do. You almost need someone on the ground to "coach" you into it so you can recognize what it feels like when they are "correct".
Before I go into the pen to make a run, I gather my horse up in my hands, I might back them up a few steps to get them thinking about using that booty and then, when I take off, I slightly elevate my seat and let them move out. I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion, I call it the sweet spot. When you get in this spot, it smooths out your run and makes for a really pretty smooth pattern. It doesn't matter if you are on a 1d barn burner or a 5d horse that just doesn't have that kind of speed. If I do all those things, it means that I don't need to do much when we approach the turns. My training is done at home and when we get to the barrel race the horse already knows his job, so I just need to stay out of the way. I hope that answers your question.
There are so many pieces to the puzzle when it comes to teach a horse to be a great barrel horse. So many times we skip little pieces and the puzzle never really fits together properly. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Getting a horse over-bendy in the neck is a problem I see a lot. We do need to remember that a horse needs to bend and flex through the rib cage, not so much the neck. If you want your horse to have a quick snappy turn and NOT be a barrel hitter, you need to teach them how to flex and lift through the barrel, round out in the back and still propel themselves forward.
All these things are a good foundation for any program and any discipline. Far too often we get a little impatient and skip some of those steps. Although we may get away with that in the short term, it's not helping you long term to skip them. If problems arise, and they will, you need to have that strong foundation to go back to.
It is definitely worth the little bit of extra work in the long run. Think about the book "The Three Little Pigs", lol.
Edited by grinandbareit 2015-01-26 7:07 PM
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I wasn't invited either, hope it's okay to respond...
IMO, we are riding race horses that have to collect and engage their hind-end to turn.
So, to answer the OP's question in really simple terms, we ride forward, then sit and drive the back-end under them, continue to sit and drive through the turn, then we ride up and forward again (over the horse's center of gravity, without hindering or interfering with them.)
My huntseat instuctor also drilled SITTING and not leaning your shoulders forward into the canter. However, English riders do ride forward with their entire posture, not just shoulders. Try standing in your saddle at a w/t/c and see what happens.
I really enjoyed reading this article about riding at a gallop: http://useventing.com/resources/files/upload/TheGallopposition-BethPerkins.pdf
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | just4fun - 2015-01-26 8:19 PM I wasn't invited either, hope it's okay to respond...
IMO, we are riding race horses that have to collect and engage their hind-end to turn.
So, to answer the OP's question in really simple terms, we ride forward, then sit and drive the back-end under them, continue to sit and drive through the turn, then we ride up and forward again (over the horse's center of gravity, without hindering or interfering with them.)
My huntseat instuctor also drilled SITTING and not leaning your shoulders forward into the canter. However, English riders do ride forward with their entire posture, not just shoulders. Try standing in your saddle at a w/t/c and see what happens.
I really enjoyed reading this article about riding at a gallop: http://useventing.com/resources/files/upload/TheGallopposition-BethPerkins.pdf
I wasn't invited either..LOL |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | LOL we had just been discussing on that "other "thread so she wanted us to see this one i think :)is why our names are on line.
discussions about horses and riding styles and differant ways of doing things are interesting..  |
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Folks on-line