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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
   
Location: Nowhere Special | This is going to be long but I need some ideas and maybe a glimmer of hope. Long story less long. After spending a lot of time horse shopping with a lot of dissapointment I happened along a horse in a kill pen, he was very well bred, young, said to be patterned on barrels and poles. Now I know there was bound to be a HUGE hole in this horse somewhere and it was just going to be if I could deal with it or not and he wasn't much money so I took the gamble. I was lucky enough to be able to talk with the lady who owned him and trained him for the first 4 years of life and he had nothing but great reviews from her. Sometime in the last 2 years after she sold him is where he fell into some bad hands that some how led him to standing in a feedlot 48 hours from a one way trip to mexico.
He showed up at the barn a complete physical mess! He was hardly more then a walking bag of bones, rain rot and dew poisioning the worst I have ever seen. Needless to say I had my work cut out for me. He has since had his teeth done, been chiro (4 times) blood panel, power packed, umpteen baths, and fed like a king.. He has rebounded AMAZINGLY! While still not looking as good as he should, he looks presentable now. He has a wonderful disposition, hes very well broke, quiet and really just the kind of gelding you can't help but fall in love with. He has a TON of personality and is a real joy to ride and own. I only started to see what he knew on the pattern last week and well to say I was impressed would be an understatment. His first needs some work but his second and third are two of the nicest barrels I have ever sat a horse on, and hes got a lot of gears I havn't even grabbed for yet. So the speed the rate the turn its all there.. However I noticed when coming out of the alleway into the arena he would duck hard right.. but with the little I played with him on the pattern that day I was able to keep him lined out and between my hands to the first with very little effort. However it did concern me that he had some arena issues. Other then that short little duck right he did I had no incination of any kind of bad behaviour at all up to this point. I took him to the barrel race just to see if he was one of those only sour at a barrel race type of horses and well he is.. Turn on the lights, music and pa system and I have a vey unhappy, crabby, sour horse. I had gone with the intention of just walking him in and out of the arena (no exhibition, nothing) He was very on the muscle but much to my suprise did walk right up the alley with no trouble. I walked around the arena, gave him treats and came out.. When I turned him around to walk back in, melt down began. The normal ducking, diving trying to jump out from uder me and make his way back to the barn. I did get him stopped, calmed down and we did walk in and out of the arena several times that night.. I just walk him up the alley stop at the arena give him a treat and repeat.. He caught on quick and it was an easy fix for that night.. I figured it would take many more days like this to get over his issue. Week later I take him again.. This time hes still very much of a unhappy camper but we have no alley issues whatsoever he walks in and out over and over and very little hesitation and no melt down at all.. So I thought.. He saved the melt down for the little holding pen. He decided he wanted to be in there and muscled his way thru the bit, till he was standing in there. Its of course packed full of people and horses and not the place for me to get into a war with him. When I ask him to leave he refuses to move forward and backs up, (into other horses and people of course) So rather then create a war where I could hurt others because I'm still not sure how far his melt downs will go I figure if he wants to back then we will and he backed all the way around and back out the gate.. Once he realized he had been tricked into backing out the holding area, he began again fighting me to get back in, rearing twice in an attempt to push thru the bit and get back in.. I just backed him all the way to the parking lot. I then walked him in and out one more time and no issue with the arena but again wanted to melt down in front of the holding pen.. I was able to keep him out of there since I was ready for it this time, but called in a night after that.. Hes smart and he catches on fast. But I'm unsure of where are next melt down will be. He seems to have no issue now with walking into the arena, I still think he is going to attempt to duck right and refuse to go to the first barrel when I do finally expo him. But we can work on that when the time comes.. However this whole refusal to leave the holding pen thing and fighting me to get in there is new to me.. IDK what to do about it.. My hands are kind of tied as far as getting into a by god you will do it storm with him while there are people in there. Idk why that was even an issue for him, hes walked in and out of there a zillion times with no issues. Hes not a buddy type of horses and HATES horses being in his personal space so wanting and refusing to leave a packed holding pen, makes no sense.. It just seems like once we get one thing worked out its not really worked out it just moves to a different area.. I really have little to no experience with arena sour horses so not sure if this is normal or if I'm wasting my time | |
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
 
Location: Alberta | Good for you and saving him, I have no real advice just a though of checking for ulcers? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | It sounds like you're doing the right things with him a and only time will tell. I know it can take lots of time and you will have to accept small victories until he learns that doing what you ask is the best way to go. You know he can learn and is not a complete lunatic, so I would stick with it. It may be a long time before you can ask him to exhibition even.
Only thing that comes to mind reading your post is to work him in the warm up pen and cool him down, get off, un-cinch, reward him (whatever works) inside the arena so he starts to think of it as a nice place to be. Even if you have to start by just hand walking him to the arena, just so he gets the idea. Good luck! | |
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| Bumping for you. Sounds like your on the right track. Just keep at it | |
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Pick Me Pick Me
Posts: 2052
Location: Somewhere between the badlands and worselands | I have done it. He ended up being a really fantastic 1d/2d jackpot horse in tough Texas and Oklahoma competition. But it's going to be a long road. He doesn't need to see the barrels for at least 60 days. And I mean the absolute bare minimum of 60 days. I waited almost around 4 to 5 months. When you do show him the barrels, you need to restart him on them as you would a fresh colt. Right now you need to do everything as you would if he was just green broke and you're doing lots of exercise, pasture riding, trail rides etc. Work on his movements for barrels such as roll backs, stopping and turning, sprints etc. But DO NOT let him see the barrels. You basically need to rewire his brain and put him back in the working state of mind he was in before he ever saw a barrel.
Jmo as this is what worked for me. It took me a little over a year to rehab mine. If you try to rush it youre going to ruin him more and you're just gonna have a bad time. | |
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | Thank You... Yes ulcer treatment is next on the list.. Hes currently on blood builder because his RBC came back low (due to the starvation) joint supplements and he just finished a power pack. I'm wondering if I shouldn't cut some of the other out and do the ulcer treatment first or if its ok for him to be getting all of this at the same time. I'm sure he has ulcers after seeing how uncomfortable and worked up he is when its "show time"..
I'd have loved to have just worked him in that holding pen when he didn't want to leave, but there is just no room to hardly even turn around, much less do anything else and he has threatened to kick at horses that get in his personal space so I can't do much in there besides not allow him to go in or get out ASAP without the possibility of hurting someone else. This was the first time hes pulled that stunt so I was not ready for it.. The first time I couldn't hardly even get him in there (same as the arena) then once he realized it was just a holding pen he was fine, and has gone in and out of there a ton with no issues at all till then.. (he had already been in and out of there 3 times that night before his melt down)
Next week I will pay for an expo. My "plan" is to just get him to the first (hopefully without a complete melt down, fingers crossed) stop him at the rate point, give him his treats get off, give some more treats and lead him out of the arena and be done for the night.. This is how I end every riding session, even when I just ride out in the pasture. I trot him to the arena up to the first, stop, treat, get off and loosen his cinch and let him stand relax and get his favorite spots scratched while he relaxes.. Without a barrel race going on hes as happy as clam to do this and pretty much does it on his own when he sees we are heading this way.. It will be whole other thing I'm sure when something is going on but hopefully he will connect the two in time.. But if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears and willing to try whatever to help him out. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Most horses sour due to pain issues
If the horse was mine, I would do 30-60 days of omeprazole and omeprazole on the days I was hauling him to the arena.
I would also have the horse vet checked head to toe and expect to be paying a couple grand the first visit to start fixing things
I can understand why he doesn't want to leave the warm up pen, it has nothing to do with buddy sour.
He knows if there is a group of horses around, he doesn't have to run barrels.
He may also have been tuned on when he left the warm up pen therefore he doesn't want the abuse to start so he stays in the warm up pen | |
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | Eatmydust.. Thank you.. Thats kind of where I was torn. I want him to associate going into the arena or walking the pattern with "done for the day, quitting time, time to relax" so I do ride out in the pasture anytime weather permits and in the indoor only when its to muddy.. Even if the barrels are set up, we don't work the pattern, I work on like you said, just baisc training movements, working on getting him fine tuned on his lateral movements at the trot and lope, fence work and so on.. But I do end the session with walking him to the rate point on the first, treating, scratching and getting off.. Good idea or no? I don't mind not working the pattern or not even seeing a barrel for however long (he does not need it, once his mind is right he will be good to go) I know hes only seen the pattern twice in the last 30 days, and I am guessing by where he was and the condition he was in he probably has not been run in (I'm hoping) in several months before I got him. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 287
| I have fixed lots of arena and barrel sour horses. Patience and getting creative, which it sounds like you are doing. Ask him to work a little more each time with baby steps but also don't put pressure on him for a long time if that makes sense. Remember he thinks that it's gonna be stress and or painfully when he goes in that arena. So it's your job to teach him that it's ok. It's gonna be chill in there and nothing is gonna hurt him | |
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | Cheryl, Hes already been gone over head to toe by two different vets. One of the best chiros in Tx, and he was out in the pole, neck, ribs and back the first session, neck and back second session, back third session and had nothing out last week. I have him checked once a week just to make sure I'm not adding to a pain issue I'm sure he once had. Physically he is good now, its just the mental issue of him realizing hes not going to be in pain, and not going to have his butt run into the ground or his face jerked off. Hes a smart sucker and you are probably right I'm sure he has been tuned on, jerked on and had his legs run off. He tends to "think" hes in trouble when hes not, at least not with me.. Last night after his melt down he knew he had been bad and his disposition was very telling. This horse is the biggest treat hound, he worse then a dog to beg for treats, its obnoxious!!!! But it works in positive ways so I allow it.. Last night after his meltdown he did not even ask for a treat and when I put him in his stall he walked to the corner as far as he could get away from me. This is a horse that I have to push his head back out of the stall door when I leave and follows me to the edge of the stall wall when I walk away. He is always right with me and always begging for treats, so this was very unlike him and he knew as corny as it sounds he had not done well.. | |
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Pick Me Pick Me
Posts: 2052
Location: Somewhere between the badlands and worselands | jetgetset - 2015-02-07 9:38 AM
Eatmydust.. Thank you.. Thats kind of where I was torn. I want him to associate going into the arena or walking the pattern with "done for the day, quitting time, time to relax" so I do ride out in the pasture anytime weather permits and in the indoor only when its to muddy.. Even if the barrels are set up, we don't work the pattern, I work on like you said, just baisc training movements, working on getting him fine tuned on his lateral movements at the trot and lope, fence work and so on.. But I do end the session with walking him to the rate point on the first, treating, scratching and getting off.. Good idea or no? I don't mind not working the pattern or not even seeing a barrel for however long (he does not need it, once his mind is right he will be good to go) I know hes only seen the pattern twice in the last 30 days, and I am guessing by where he was and the condition he was in he probably has not been run in (I'm hoping) in several months before I got him.Â
I think completely separating him for a while would be a good idea. The slowly incorporate them into his workouts maybe?....but not the actual pattern. Set up just one barrel and work on rating, turns, even doing rollback around the barrels. Then after a while incorporate another barrel and start working two barrels. Then eventually three.
Like I said, this is just from my experience. You know you're horse better than I do. Horses aren't one size fits all and neither is training. But these are good ideas to consider. The best thing you can do is just take some time to get to know him and let him get to know you. The more in tune you are with each other the better you can figure out what he needs and he can figure out what your asking. Let him communicate with you. That's all training is, is communication. He will tell you what he needs or when he's ready to move forward.
There's a wealth of information on here. No one person is exactly right. So consider the suggestions given to you and like I said take some time to get to know your horse. Then create a program that's tailor made for him based on what you've learned here and what he's "told you"
Feel free to PM me if you want more in depth info on the program I used. | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I would specifically check for ulcers. If he has them, move treatment to the top of the list because they can and will affect everything - from how well he's utilizing the feed he gets daily to upsetting him when he travels. Listen to your vet on course of treatment.
I would pick and choose the places you take him, but I would take him places since it sounds like that is where his problem is - not at home. Pick places where you know you have room to ride around. Arrive early during open arena time (ask them if it's too much trouble to play music during the open arena if they aren't, frankly I like some tunes when I ride anyway).
Ride him around, if he's good - dismount in one of his trouble spots like the alley or holding pen, loosen your girth and ask him to stand there quietly for a few moments. Read his body language - if minutes is too much to ask, but he gives you 30 seconds, take it. Take him back to the trailer and let him eat for a while. Untack him if time allows.
Repeat in 20-30 minutes. Maybe this time warm ups have started and you're asking him to just go in and out of the holding pen. When he's good, stop and get off, loosen the girth and have him stand. Take him back to the trailer. Let him decompress and rest.
Repeat again in 30 minutes - maybe it's the tail end of warms ups and this time you pay your dues to go in the area. I wouldn't work the pattern. I would ask him to work some circles at the top of the arena and focus, then I would get off and loosen the girth and ask him to stand quietly in the pen. Then take him back to the trailer.
Maybe repeat during the race, again - asking him to do whatever you can while keeping others safe - if it's going in and out of the holding pen, standing next to the ring, up and down the alley during the drag, whatever you can. Plan on spending the whole day there if you need to, working in short pieces and giving him time to rest and decompress in between.
I have a lot of fun watching Ed Wright work with horses like this at clinics. Keep it short, have a plan, keep it simple, let them rest and think. If it's a big battle, untack him in between, wash him down if you can, and really his brain reset.
It sounds like if you can bring him back he's going to be a bang up nice horse - but it's going to take some time. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | jetgetset - 2015-02-07 10:49 AM
Cheryl, Hes already been gone over head to toe by two different vets. One of the best chiros in Tx, and he was out in the pole, neck, ribs and back the first session, neck and back second session, back third session and had nothing out last week. I have him checked once a week just to make sure I'm not adding to a pain issue I'm sure he once had. Physically he is good now, its just the mental issue of him realizing hes not going to be in pain, and not going to have his butt run into the ground or his face jerked off. Hes a smart sucker and you are probably right I'm sure he has been tuned on, jerked on and had his legs run off. He tends to "think" hes in trouble when hes not, at least not with me.. Last night after his melt down he knew he had been bad and his disposition was very telling. This horse is the biggest treat hound, he worse then a dog to beg for treats, its obnoxious!!!! But it works in positive ways so I allow it.. Last night after his meltdown he did not even ask for a treat and when I put him in his stall he walked to the corner as far as he could get away from me. This is a horse that I have to push his head back out of the stall door when I leave and follows me to the edge of the stall wall when I walk away. He is always right with me and always begging for treats, so this was very unlike him and he knew as corny as it sounds he had not done well.. Â
Oh my gosh his personality sounds exactly like mine. Mine has been very well treated his whole life though, so no issues but I can see where if someone was rough with him he'd end up like your boy. I think you've gotten some good advice so hopefully in time he'll get through this and be awesome!  | |
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming.. Hes a REALLY nice horse and even if he never makes a barrel horse again he will certainly make a nice trail horse for someone. If I can get him fixed I have a feeling hes going to make one of the best barrel horses I have ever owned. I guess only time will tell and I'm in no hurry.. As far as the ulcer thing goes I am going to have to put him on some kind of feed thru treatment. The way I work I'm gone days at a time and couldn't give him gastro guard or any other daily paste supplement, I board while in TX and there is no way the barn help would be able to dose him everyday.. Hes a man hater to start with and already has them a little buffaloed so I can't see that working out at all. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | I wouldn't try him in a exhibition. I would keep hauling him to the barrel races, but just walking around and letting him stand relaxed until he isn't acting up any more. Until he loses that fear, you won't be able to get anything to sink in anyway. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | jetgetset - 2015-02-07 10:28 AM Thank You... Yes ulcer treatment is next on the list.. Hes currently on blood builder because his RBC came back low (due to the starvation) joint supplements and he just finished a power pack. I'm wondering if I shouldn't cut some of the other out and do the ulcer treatment first or if its ok for him to be getting all of this at the same time. I'm sure he has ulcers after seeing how uncomfortable and worked up he is when its "show time"..
I'd have loved to have just worked him in that holding pen when he didn't want to leave, but there is just no room to hardly even turn around, much less do anything else and he has threatened to kick at horses that get in his personal space so I can't do much in there besides not allow him to go in or get out ASAP without the possibility of hurting someone else. This was the first time hes pulled that stunt so I was not ready for it.. The first time I couldn't hardly even get him in there (same as the arena) then once he realized it was just a holding pen he was fine, and has gone in and out of there a ton with no issues at all till then.. (he had already been in and out of there 3 times that night before his melt down)
Next week I will pay for an expo. My "plan" is to just get him to the first (hopefully without a complete melt down, fingers crossed) stop him at the rate point, give him his treats get off, give some more treats and lead him out of the arena and be done for the night.. This is how I end every riding session, even when I just ride out in the pasture. I trot him to the arena up to the first, stop, treat, get off and loosen his cinch and let him stand relax and get his favorite spots scratched while he relaxes.. Without a barrel race going on hes as happy as clam to do this and pretty much does it on his own when he sees we are heading this way.. It will be whole other thing I'm sure when something is going on but hopefully he will connect the two in time.. But if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears and willing to try whatever to help him out. Most of my barrel horses have been someone else's screw ups....I think you are rushing it a bit....no way would I even take him into the arena for an "exhibition" even though you are not going to do the pattern. what happens if you can't get him to first? .....IMO, that horse needs LOTS of time "out of" and "around" the arena.....if you have to, get there extra early or stay late to work on the holding pen problems.
Edited by NJJ 2015-02-07 4:20 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| jetgetset - 2015-02-07 12:22 PM
Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming.. Hes a REALLY nice horse and even if he never makes a barrel horse again he will certainly make a nice trail horse for someone. If I can get him fixed I have a feeling hes going to make one of the best barrel horses I have ever owned. I guess only time will tell and I'm in no hurry.. As far as the ulcer thing goes I am going to have to put him on some kind of feed thru treatment. The way I work I'm gone days at a time and couldn't give him gastro guard or any other daily paste supplement, I board while in TX and there is no way the barn help would be able to dose him everyday.. Hes a man hater to start with and already has them a little buffaloed so I can't see that working out at all. Â
There are omeprazole powdered and granules.
I had success with Douglas Gordon product
And I had success with the granules, i believe the website was omeprazole direct.com or something similar | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | eatmydust55 - 2015-02-07 10:11 AM I have done it. He ended up being a really fantastic 1d/2d jackpot horse in tough Texas and Oklahoma competition. But it's going to be a long road. He doesn't need to see the barrels for at least 60 days. And I mean the absolute bare minimum of 60 days. I waited almost around 4 to 5 months. When you do show him the barrels, you need to restart him on them as you would a fresh colt. Right now you need to do everything as you would if he was just green broke and you're doing lots of exercise, pasture riding, trail rides etc. Work on his movements for barrels such as roll backs, stopping and turning, sprints etc. But DO NOT let him see the barrels. You basically need to rewire his brain and put him back in the working state of mind he was in before he ever saw a barrel. Jmo as this is what worked for me. It took me a little over a year to rehab mine. If you try to rush it youre going to ruin him more and you're just gonna have a bad time.
The majority of horses I've owned has been blown up barrel horses and I agree with the above.
You are putting him right back into the situation that ended him up in the killer pen. This horse shouldn't have anything to do with barrels period for at least 4 months. I've had one that I had him take a year off. I got him back into the best physical shape possible and just rode him. He got his confidence back in himself and he got confidence in me that I wasn't going to put him in a bad situation. He came back running in the 1-D. I never worked him on the barrels. He knew his job.
Good Luck! I love messing with blown up horses. It's fun watching them become the best that they can be after having a huge meltdown.
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | I should have included I board him at the place that has the barrel races so we ride there everyday. They have 3 sometimes 4 a week so it allows for lots of walk around time and even when I'm not there hes still in a pen where he sees and hears everything.. That's why I am kind of stuck with the whole holding pen thing.. Hes been in and out of there a zillion times and only had that melt down that time, heck he had been in and out of there 3 times that night before the meltdown with no issue at all. I don't have my truck and trailer here so I can't haul anywhere else.
I did ride him around today and he did GREAT.. I kept it short but changed it up a little and took him to the warm up pen rode around for a little bit then took him to the arena, walked up the alley during the drag got off and called it day. No hesitation whatsoever and he was as good as gold, and seemed much more relaxed. So hopefully some of this is sinking in. I however did keep it much shorter and did stay away from the holding pen since it was packed, but he did not try to drag me in there when we walked by which is a big improvement from last night.. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1066
| jetgetset - 2015-02-07 11:22 AM
Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming.. Hes a REALLY nice horse and even if he never makes a barrel horse again he will certainly make a nice trail horse for someone. If I can get him fixed I have a feeling hes going to make one of the best barrel horses I have ever owned. I guess only time will tell and I'm in no hurry.. As far as the ulcer thing goes I am going to have to put him on some kind of feed thru treatment. The way I work I'm gone days at a time and couldn't give him gastro guard or any other daily paste supplement, I board while in TX and there is no way the barn help would be able to dose him everyday.. Hes a man hater to start with and already has them a little buffaloed so I can't see that working out at all. Â
If omeprazol or something of the like is out of the question for you you should check out the Turmeric User Group on facebook. Apparently Turmeric can be used to treat ulcers, it would be a feed through supplement, it's very cost efficient, and the other benefits it provides are endless! Just a suggestion... It'd be worth a try! | |
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