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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
   
Location: Kansas | Over the past few months, Clifford and I have been on & off with our first barrel. Sometimes he would inhale it and go win the barrel race but other times he'd run down the fence. After our Jan. 11th run (down the fence), I took him to the vet and we found mild lameness in his right hind leg. (He runs to the left so that right leg would be the one taking the hit at the 1st barrel)
Xrays showed some hock issues so both hocks got injected and I took him back a week later (last Thursday) to visit a second vet who is also a chiropractor and has a great eye for lameness. Hock lameness seemed to be gone or much improved but he showed all the signs of stifle issues, so they x-rayed the right stifle, agreed there was something going on with the meniscus and injected it.
Cliff has been turned out with the rest of the herd since then and I was told to run him Feb. 22nd, but I'm wondering what the traditional rehab/recovery routine is for stifle injections. I haven't ridden him or even haltered him since the injection on Thursday, but am wondering if it is acceptable/recommended to do any barrel work this week? Wednesday is the first day I'll have the chance, though I may be able to get him ridden tomorrow and/or Tuesday.
This is my first experience with stifle issues, and the vets mostly talked over my head and pointed at things on the x-rays that I couldn't see because I was holding the lead rope. I did hear that the damage to the meniscus wasn't as bad as they initially thought it might be, and my regular vet told me I'll likely have to do some continued maintenance on it but he seemed to think it was no big deal.
I guess I'm wanting to hear more about stifle injections and what should be done after them. | |
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 It Goes On
Posts: 2262
Location: Muskogee, OK | It's interesting that they told you there was a meniscal problem solely off of radiographs. You can't tell anything about the health of the meniscus from radiographs.... Ultrasound can give you some visualization of the soft tissue structures within the stifle but also is lacking in the ability to assess the whole joint and structures within.
With that said, if there truly is meniscal damage, an injection isn't going to fix anything. It may take out some of the inflammation short term, but meniscal injuries require rest. Rest, rest and more rest (stall rest ideally), along with regenerative therapies such as IRAP, stem cells, etc are your best bet.
Now, if you are injecting a stifle for something such as routine synovitis or arthritis, generally we give them 3-4 days rest and put them back to work. You usually start to see them feeling pretty good as soon as 24 hours post injection (if steroids are used, which is most often the case). | |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | barrelracingchick16 - 2015-02-08 9:48 PM
  It's interesting that they told you there was a meniscal problem solely off of radiographs. You can't tell anything about the health of the meniscus from radiographs.... Ultrasound can give you some visualization of the soft tissue structures within the stifle but also is lacking in the ability to assess the whole joint and structures within.
    With that said, if there truly is meniscal damage, an injection isn't going to fix anything.  It may take out some of the inflammation short term, but meniscal injuries require rest.  Rest, rest and more rest (stall rest ideally), along with regenerative therapies such as IRAP, stem cells, etc are your best bet.
   Now, if you are injecting a stifle for something such as routine synovitis or arthritis, generally we give them 3-4 days rest and put them back to work. You usually start to see them feeling pretty good as soon as 24 hours post injection (if steroids are used, which is most often the case).
Yes yes and yes to what she said. A mare of mine has had repeated stifle issues. We injected a few times but still was lame and X-ray were clean. To see any soft tissue issues you need ultrasound at a minimum. I ended up taking my mare to Oakridge equine in Edmond, OK. My vet here is not equipped to do big procedures. He owns his own small clinic now after working at a large equine facility so he usually knows the problem but can't always fix it. Had to have my mares stifle split. It was catching but was also doing some damage to another ligament in there. 2 weeks stall rest 4 weeks turnout. We started legging up last week. Straight lines only for 2 weeks | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | could you make an inference based on radiographs if say, the meniscal spacing was narrowed from one side to the other? or if theres mineralization where there shouldn't be? Just throwing out ideas.. | |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Typically on any horse with stifle soreness the last thing we do is work them on the pattern. Long trotting straight lines....no circles or corners. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I had my horse's right stifle injected back in July. Vet said 3-4 days off and I wound up giving him a week due to rain. He showed signs of it bothering him again in September as per the lameness locator, but I opted not to X-ray as the biggest problem was his suspensories. I'm hoping his stifles won't need to be messed with, but if so I hope it's not a tissue issue and if it was I hope it healed itself. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Long low straight lines and ground poles, I have the CSU rehab schedule somewhere on my computer. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | I could have the timeline of when the meniscus was mentioned messed up. That could have been their thought when they were just looking at him. I do know that my regular vet seemed really concerned before the "pictures" (they never called them x-rays, so maybe it was something else high tech that the visiting vet had) were taken but after that, the vets agreed there was no tear and nothing folded over to make a flap (I'm really confused by this point).
Rachellyn - How long do you keep them on a straight line exercise routine? I don't have anything I *have* to go to until the 22nd and I've got 3 other horses who are all in great shape to run so he can have as much time off as he needs. My gray got a clean bill of health Thursday - the visiting vet said Chance looked better than he ever has. Oh yeah!!
At any rate, I just called the vet clinic and left a message for Dr. Droge, my regular vet, to call me back and explain it again as if I'm stupid because on this, I think I am. lol. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 8:15 AM Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck?
I don't believe so. It's been really hard to pinpoint any problems because he was just barely off. They narrowed it to that leg because he kept resting it when we'd stop moving him around and he didn't want it stretched out behind him. | |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly.
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced. Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | rachellyn80 - 2015-02-09 8:57 AM That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly.
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced . Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn.
I'm not big on barrel work either, and the only thing I do with him is walking. He's a freight train and needs to remember to slow down and focus. I do have some hills across the road and can work him over there.
We aren't really sure what caused the soreness. Could it have been a slip or fall? He pancaked in mid-July at a jackpot and has intermittently gone down the fence at the first since then. I thought I was letting him run too fast at it, then thought we were cutting our pocket off, he was just not thinking when we came in alley, etc. If he would have gone down the fence every time, it would have been obvious that something was off, but when it was about 60/40 turning it vs. going down the fence, no one could say for sure - even the vets in August or September - that he was hurting. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 8:54 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 8:15 AM Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck? I don't believe so. It's been really hard to pinpoint any problems because he was just barely off. They narrowed it to that leg because he kept resting it when we'd stop moving him around and he didn't want it stretched out behind him.
I'm trying to figure out if it's a common thing or just my horse that does this. But when his stifle is bothering him, his neck on the opposite side also bothers him. Like he will fuss or make ugly faces when I brush him. He will still stretch it good, and doesn't palpate sore, so it's not obvious if you don't know him well. | |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 9:53 AM
rachellyn80 - 2015-02-09 8:57 AM That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. Â I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Â Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Â Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly. Â
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. Â It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced. Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn.Â
We aren't really sure what caused the soreness. Could it have been a slip or fall? He pancaked in mid-July at a jackpot and has intermittently gone down the fence at the first since then. I thought I was letting him run too fast at it, then thought we were cutting our pocket off, he was just not thinking when we came in alley, etc. If he would have gone down the fence every time, it would have been obvious that something was off, but when it was about 60/40 turning it vs. going down the fence, no one could say for sure - even the vets in August or September - that he was hurting.
The thing with sore stifles is if you make a few runs back to back they will probably not be consistent. The stifle will sore up and if it doesn't have time for the inflammation to go down your horse is not gonna want to work. If you work them at home a day or two before you haul this may make him sore enuf not to want to work that direction. Probably why he is only doing it every once in awhile. Which may be a good sign as far as stifles go. Sounds like when he had problem in July is when he sored it up. When I have injected we usually are told 3-4 days off stall rest 1st day then turn out. After that long trotting straight lines at least for a few weeks.
Edited by mreklaw 2015-02-09 1:02 PM
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 10:14 AM rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 8:54 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 8:15 AM Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck? I don't believe so. It's been really hard to pinpoint any problems because he was just barely off. They narrowed it to that leg because he kept resting it when we'd stop moving him around and he didn't want it stretched out behind him.
Not trying to steal the thread.. but this is interesting. My gelding was constantly (and still does a lot) resting a back leg. Mostly the right (the stifle that was injected and the suspensory that had inflammation) leg, but occasionally the left. Hauled him to an osteopath/chiro about a week ago and she said it was my horse's SI giving him problems. He was fine for a few days and squared up when standing, but I was unable to do some of the stretches for the SI as I was doing it all alone and I'm afraid he's gone back to his old ways before the appointment. T4L, has your horse had SI problems? I have an appointment coming up with my vet that handled the suspensory... just curious if I'm maybe dealing with the SI or stifle or both! | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | mreklaw - 2015-02-09 1:01 PM [ quote]rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 9:53 AM rachellyn80 - 2015-02-09 8:57 AM That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly.
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced. Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn.
We aren't really sure what caused the soreness. Could it have been a slip or fall? He pancaked in mid-July at a jackpot and has intermittently gone down the fence at the first since then. I thought I was letting him run too fast at it, then thought we were cutting our pocket off, he was just not thinking when we came in alley, etc. If he would have gone down the fence every time, it would have been obvious that something was off, but when it was about 60/40 turning it vs. going down the fence, no one could say for sure - even the vets in August or September - that he was hurting.
I don't know for sure that the July fall is when he got hurt, but it's the only thing I can come up with. The fall was on a Tuesday, his next run was late Thursday night and he turned the first barrel but was past it a couple strides. Of course that was a weekend I entered a bunch of small pen rodeos, so he was the only horse I hauled, and he went down the fence Friday, Saturday and Sunday. He then had a full 8 days before he ran again, and he won that jackpot by a mile. The rest of the year was kind of that way - smoke a run, then a week later go down the fence, work the next couple runs, down the fence, etc.
Sounds like he's skipping the next NBHA. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Longneck - 2015-02-09 1:23 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 10:14 AM rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 8:54 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 8:15 AM Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck? I don't believe so. It's been really hard to pinpoint any problems because he was just barely off. They narrowed it to that leg because he kept resting it when we'd stop moving him around and he didn't want it stretched out behind him.
I agree it's interesting. What really gets me about Cliff is that the Sunday before our first vet visit, I could have sworn he was resting the left hind leg, but at the vet both days it was 95% the right leg.
As far as SI issues go, my gray (Chance) had his SI injected last March 31st. He wasn't powering out of his turns like he can and my 1D horse was a 2D horse most of the time. It turned out he also had sore feet but the SI injections did make a difference. He wasn't resting a hind leg on a regular basis before that. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 1:32 PM Longneck - 2015-02-09 1:23 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 10:14 AM rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 8:54 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-02-09 8:15 AM Just curious, does he have any soreness or tenderness on the left side of his neck? I don't believe so. It's been really hard to pinpoint any problems because he was just barely off. They narrowed it to that leg because he kept resting it when we'd stop moving him around and he didn't want it stretched out behind him.
As far as SI issues go, my gray (Chance) had his SI injected last March 31st. He wasn't powering out of his turns like he can and my 1D horse was a 2D horse most of the time. It turned out he also had sore feet but the SI injections did make a difference. He wasn't resting a hind leg on a regular basis before that.
Thanks, sounds like I'm still looking more into stifles then!
If only they could speak words and tell exactly where the pain is! | |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 1:29 PM
mreklaw - 2015-02-09 1:01 PM [ quote]rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 9:53 AM rachellyn80 - 2015-02-09 8:57 AM That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. Â I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Â Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Â Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly. Â
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. Â It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced. Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn.Â
We aren't really sure what caused the soreness. Could it have been a slip or fall? He pancaked in mid-July at a jackpot and has intermittently gone down the fence at the first since then. I thought I was letting him run too fast at it, then thought we were cutting our pocket off, he was just not thinking when we came in alley, etc. If he would have gone down the fence every time, it would have been obvious that something was off, but when it was about 60/40 turning it vs. going down the fence, no one could say for sure - even the vets in August or September - that he was hurting. The thing with sore stifles is if you make a few runs back to back they will probably not be consistent. The stifle will sore up and if it doesn't have time for the inflammation to go down your horse is not gonna want to work. If you work them at home a day or two before you haul this may make him sore enuf not to want to work that direction. Probably why he is only doing it every once in awhile. Which may be a good sign as far as stifles go. Sounds like when he had problem in July is when he sored it up. When I have injected we usually are told 3-4 days off stall rest 1st day then turn out. After that long trotting straight lines at least for a few weeks.
I don't know for sure that the July fall is when he got hurt, but it's the only thing I can come up with. The fall was on a Tuesday, his next run was late Thursday night and he turned the first barrel but was past it a couple strides. Of course that was a weekend I entered a bunch of small pen rodeos, so he was the only horse I hauled, and he went down the fence Friday, Saturday and Sunday. He then had a full 8 days before he ran again, and he won that jackpot by a mile. The rest of the year was kind of that way - smoke a run, then a week later go down the fence, work the next couple runs, down the fence, etc.
Sounds like he's skipping the next NBHA.
The more I think about it you may have something else causing this. Normally sore stifles they pull off the back side of the barrel. Because when they get to the back side and have to load the weight on the outside leg/stifle that's when they want to get away from the pain. Did you say you had his hocks xrayed? just looked and you did and injected. The stifle could be secondary to the hocks. I would just straight line trot for a few weeks no turns and you might be good.
Edited by mreklaw 2015-02-09 2:52 PM
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | mreklaw - 2015-02-09 2:49 PM [ quote]rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 1:29 PM mreklaw - 2015-02-09 1:01 PM [ quote]rodeowithjoker - 2015-02-09 9:53 AM rachellyn80 - 2015-02-09 8:57 AM That's almost two weeks away so you should have a pretty good idea how he feels by then. I don't ever do much barrel work at all anyway, but I would give him at least a week of long trotting. Hill work is great if you have them, or trotting over ground poles if you don't is an alternative. Stretching is beneficial if you know how to do it correctly.
The thing that will help him the most is eliminating the cause of the soreness if possible. It might just be his structure, or it could be the way he's shod/balanced. Some horses can't handle shoes on the rear feet due to their own style of turning or the way the rider is asking them to turn.
We aren't really sure what caused the soreness. Could it have been a slip or fall? He pancaked in mid-July at a jackpot and has intermittently gone down the fence at the first since then. I thought I was letting him run too fast at it, then thought we were cutting our pocket off, he was just not thinking when we came in alley, etc. If he would have gone down the fence every time, it would have been obvious that something was off, but when it was about 60/40 turning it vs. going down the fence, no one could say for sure - even the vets in August or September - that he was hurting. The thing with sore stifles is if you make a few runs back to back they will probably not be consistent. The stifle will sore up and if it doesn't have time for the inflammation to go down your horse is not gonna want to work. If you work them at home a day or two before you haul this may make him sore enuf not to want to work that direction. Probably why he is only doing it every once in awhile. Which may be a good sign as far as stifles go. Sounds like when he had problem in July is when he sored it up. When I have injected we usually are told 3-4 days off stall rest 1st day then turn out. After that long trotting straight lines at least for a few weeks.
Sounds like he's skipping the next NBHA. The more I think about it you may have something else causing this. Normally sore stifles they pull off the back side of the barrel. Because when they get to the back side and have to load the weight on the outside leg/stifle that's when they want to get away from the pain. Did you say you had his hocks xrayed? just looked and you did and injected. The stifle could be secondary to the hocks. I would just straight line trot for a few weeks no turns and you might be good.
He has done a lot of funky things at different points of his career, but pulling off the backside of first has not traditionally been one of them. He's pulled off a few times but we've always been in too tight and he's stepped off to avoid hitting it with his inside shoulder.
The hocks weren't very bad, just had some narrowing of the joint space so we went ahead while he was sedated and injected to be on the safe side. | |
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