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 Expert
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| I know a couple of people who are taking rescued thouroughbreds to the Retired Racehorse Projects: Thouroughbred Showcase in Kentucky. Following their journey http://offtrackthoroughbreds.com/2015/02/27/trampled-kill-pen-mare-readies-for-show/ has me thinking and I would like to hear your thoughts as well. What can we do to prevent so many horses being neglected and taken to auction to face kill pens and slaughter? My livelyhood relies significantly on the horse market because my husband is in training and sales. I understand the need for slaughter, but on the same token I hate seeing it on such a large scale. There are an estimated 37,000 Thouroughbred horses born every year. A few will be successful winners and producers, and some end up with a second career in jumping etc. What about the masses? This isnt just a Throuroughbred problem but a problem that affects all breeds and diciplines. There are many organizations out there to promote second careers for retired race horses and they are doing a great job. SO...what ELSE can we do? What, in your opinion could be a solution to these problems.
Edited by scwebster 2015-02-27 11:17 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter. | |
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| I feel like backyard breeders are a small percentage compared to the amount of race horses run through a sale barn headed to Mexico or Canada. | |
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 I hate cooking and cleaning
Posts: 3314
Location: Jersey Girl | FlyingJT - 2015-02-27 12:33 PM I feel like backyard breeders are a small percentage compared to the amount of race horses run through a sale barn headed to Mexico or Canada.
I agree.
I don't feel backyard breeders help the situation but QH, TB and standardbred's are mass produced. There are farms and ranches that have huge bands of broodmares that they breed year after year. | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Slaughter is the solution to overproducing. There are always going to be culls with livestock. If you can't get rid of the culls someone will pick them up at the right price and perpetuate the problem. Even the shelters understand that with dogs and cats. If nobody wants them they are put down. Same thing must exist with horses.
Edited by Whiteboy 2015-02-27 11:48 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter. Â
Do me a favor and never vote, K thanks. | |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I personally would like to see some accountability from all breeders... yes backyard breeders are part of the problem but I think there any many "high end" breeding operations who are also big contributers. Racing is a huge part of it. And I dont mean to gain enemies but I think these "hot bloodlines" are losing value because EVERYONE needs a stud out of said hot bloodlines. They no longer are so hot when there is 1,000 of them in a few hundred mile radius.
I also understand slaughter has its needs but I agree with the OP that it is in excessive volumes.
I know I will get flamed for this and I dont have all the answers but I would like to have some breeding restrictions by the organizations. I know the argument is that this wont stop backyard breeders but I think this is a small piece of the puzzle. And with that said, out of the many "backyard breeders" in this area, a good majority breed registered offsprings. They are intelligent enough to know that registration is important, there bloodlines just arent anything impressive. | |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Whiteboy - 2015-02-27 11:47 AM
Slaughter is the solution to overproducing. There are always going to be culls with livestock. If you can't get rid of the culls someone will pick them up at the right price and perpetuate the problem. Even the shelters understand that with dogs and cats. If nobody wants them they are put down. Same thing must exist with horses. Â
Agree. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter. Â
I have to disagree with this statement completely. There are great mares and studs that have never competed, have no earnings to speak of but did tremendous things for the industry. I believe Caseys Charm was never ran. Never earned a dollar but produced some very outstanding individuals, including French Flash Hawk, Frenchmans Hayday and Frenchmans Fabulous.
What about injury? Injury has kept many great producers from being successful in the arena but not in the breeding pen.
Plus what is successful to one may not be successful to others. What about ranches? What would they do for horses? Their string is most likely not proven in the arena but they will put in a hard days work, and that what makes a successful ranch horse. How will the ranches replace their horses? They aren't going to spend goobs of money on animals with impectiable pedigrees and proven parents. It wouldn't be beneficial to their program. We've had some **** good ranch bred horses.
I don't know what the solution is but I think we would miss out on a whole lot of great animals if that is it.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 12:09 PM
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Member
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| Yes let's become communist. Because people should not have the right to breed horses that they paid for and feed unless they have special licenses and schooling from the state and after you have all that licensing Suzy Q and John Doe must approve that the two horses that you own are quality enough to breed for your own private purposes. Ugh. SMH. I hold my tongue very well but I can't stand people that think individuals don't have rights. I don't like backyard breeders at all, but I LOVE that America is a free country and people have the right to do as they please with and on their own property. Let's not change that. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 278
Location: Whitney, NE | So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away? | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I also enjoy that we live in a free country but I also recognize that apparently the human race isnt being responsible enough. Why do we have laws? because clearly people need guidelines. There is always a chance that regulations can get out of hand, just as the over population has...
You can play that argument both ways.
There is always the chance that breed organizations impliment some basic regulations and these regulations could increase the quality of horses and ensure more value aka the market. Many of you all complain about the crappy market and think slaughter is the need... however, in my opinion it is just a bandaid for the underlying issue. Us... as in humans... breeders.
Isn't it entirely possible that the above could happen? Just as possible as the other negative effects you predict from regulating breeding? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | I think something that might help is for breed organizations to hold stallion and mare tests. They do this with Fresians I believe and then people even advertise based on how well their breeding tested (there are different levels, just like A, B, and C are all passing but A is best of the lot). If the animal does not pass the test then the organization requires that the animal be gelded or not bred (i.e. will not register the stock as they are not in the "breeding registry" from the test). This could start with the basics like passing the 5 panel, not being parrot mouthed, or anything that would disqualify a horse in a halter class, etc.
I don't know that this would completely take care of the problem, but it might be a start. And its not overregulation by a government entity that just makes it bigger and more expensive. | |
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 Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | There will always be irresponsible breeders/owners...it's not up to the government to regulate any of this...if anything, it's up to the breed associations that turn a blind eye to the increasing numbers of their horses going to slaughter when they don't measure up, but these associations only care about the money from membership and registration numbers, so they allow more and more lenient breeding tactics.....we are way beyond live cover breeding, which was self limiting....but now with AI, shipped semen, clones, embryo transfer, etc., the number of foals is limitless...is this good or bad?...I don't know...just sayin......I don't think you can count on them to put limits on breeding situations...
I don't have answers either except that I am responsible myself and stopped breeding years ago because I didn't have a solid plan for a foal...and unless I can keep the foal and train it myself, I won't breed.
I have room to foster a couple rescues, so I plan to incorporate that into my horse situation....I know the rescue people do all they can to help the animals and they never have enough money or homes, and I also donate as a business and personally to the recues in my area....I do what I can, and I think posts like these that make people aware of the situation help...so hopefully, there are more people out there who will find a way to take in a rescue, even temporarily, or contribute in some way.....
All 4 of my dogs are rescues, and I have rescued and found homes for countless dogs who have been abandoned...I take them to the vet, have them spayed or neutered, shots, get them healthy etc. and then find a good home for them....it's my way of giving back in memory of all of my animals who have been special to me in my life....
I wish I had better answers, but as long as there are people out there who irresponsibly breed or abuse animals, there have to be more and more of us who are willing to step in and help the animals who can't help themselves...and I do believe a necessary evil is slaughter...unfortunately, some of the very people who breed these horses already know they are signing their death warrant if they don't perform as expected, and they don't care....they throw an obscene amount of money into breeding for winners...it's too bad they don't do the same for the leftovers...
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| As I said I understand there is a need for slaughter. However I feel a very large number of horses go to slaughter because there is simply no place for them. It isnt because they are old or sick, or kulls. Im not sure what the solution is but I do wish we as horse people could be more responsible for situations we create.
Edited by scwebster 2015-02-27 1:18 PM
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I wouldn't call producing an animal you have a plan and use for backyard breeding at all. | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| I dont belive that the people you are refering to, are even involved with the breed associations. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM
SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never.
Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares?
Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock.
And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 3:38 PM
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