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Member
Posts: 48
| I would like to hear recommendations for (1) things that worked, and (2) bits to help in this issue I'm having with my mare.
Challenge: 7 year old extremely broke (nearly over-broke) handle-wise cutting horse bred barrel horse. No health issues or pain. This is a between-the-ears problem. LOL She will slow work weill but she's so "danged" smart she thinks she knows what's up when it's time to run. Even learning poles, after 3 times through she just dove through the middle one when she thought it was time to start weaving...smh....but I digress.
Walks on the muscle into the alley..might do the stopping all but will go in...then..wants to launch...will launch if you aren't paying attention...even in trainers. If she thinks she's running, she's ready to go and will get away from you. The problem is that she rushes through her turns even at a lope. The other night she blew so far off second she decided it might be a good idea to go home (alley). She re-did second and then completed the pattern. smh. This was in TRAINERS. We didn't even run in the race that night.
I've had this mare since she was 2. She is extremely smart but will try, try, try you. She has the ability to be a really nice horse. Has placed in top 5 out of 145+...when she can get her head in the game. She's smokin fast and will NOT run past one...but...we have issues. ;)
Two questions:
1. How do you get the "rush" out of her. Being "Quick" is one thing, "rush" is something else. Slow work at home doesn't do it. She really only does this at shows and only if she *thinks* she's going to run. (Incidentally, she wasn't started until she was 4 on barrels and probably has only run 50-75 races in her life. Her legs are NOT run off).
2. Bit recommendations? She is currently in a Connie Combs short shank stabilizer bit but she can get away from me if she takes a mind to...should I go for a combination? Something with some nose? She NEVER runs past a barrel...but when she is being rotten she'll blow off second and think about leaving the pen. Like Saturday, for example.
And yes, she's been to professional people...she does the same thing with them when she takes a notion. -_-
Am I wasting my time? Anyone successfully worked through these issues?
Please don't judge. But please DO offer suggestions....
~~~~Thank you~~~~ | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | When you say no health issues or pain, please walk us thru what all you've done to rule that out.
A video would be very helpful. | |
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 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | You need to slow things down.. Do slow work at the races, give her calmers if you have to until she figures it out.
I am not against quieting a colt down after a few times of trying them without calmers. They need to be able to relax, and if they can't its not a bad thing to help them. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| My gelding was like this. I had to get his attention and focus back on me and NOT on the anticipation of the run. I visited with two excellent trainers and they helped me get through this. I went back to ground work, got him really hooked on me so he waiting for my next cue, not him assuming he knew what was next.
When I'd get to shows I'd still do that same ground work before I even got on him to make sure he was thinking, not just going through the motions. He had to really think and focus and WAIT on me.
Helped me a ton. I had so much more control and confidence that I was in control of the situation, not just a passenger with my fingers crossed that it would go good. | |
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Member
Posts: 48
| Thank you.....these ideas are helpful. :-) I like the idea of the groundwork. She's very strong there but I haven't implemented it at races.
Any recommendations for a calming paste? She doesn't need a supplement, I don't think. This is situational.
We we have had chiro, dentist, vet, massage therapist look at her. Even changed saddles, girths ....so I feel confident in saying her problem is between her ears. Haha | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Do a few exhibitions for a while, and anytime she tried to rush it, make her stop, back up, and trot the rest, if she won't trot, then walk it. Get it in her mind that rushing is not going to work anymore. Don't let her run until she quits taking things into her own hands. Go in THINKING race, then fix whatever she does wrong.
I would get out of the mullen mouth and into maybe a twisted dog bone, get something that will give you some bite when she runs into it, but isn't so much that she won't run with it. Sounds like it's not enough to keep her listening to what you are doing. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| barrelrunner66 - 2015-07-27 7:29 PM
Thank you.....these ideas are helpful. :-) I like the idea of the groundwork. She's very strong there but I haven't implemented it at races.
Any recommendations for a calming paste? She doesn't need a supplement, I don't think. This is situational.
We we have had chiro, dentist, vet, massage therapist look at her. Even changed saddles, girths ....so I feel confident in saying her problem is between her ears. Haha
Was this a good lamness vet, were xrays and ultrasound done? Some injuries/abnormalities don't show up during routine flexion tests but only show up while turning at high speeds therefore xray and ultrasound may pick it up. To me this sounds like a hock problem possible si.
If the horse is broke and patterned well, they shouldn't be blowing off of second, they should be finishing it on their own.
If she has had a thorough vet check then I would start doing times onlies and circle the second barrel a few times till she quits rushing through it.
I would also be two hand slowing/rating/shortening the stride before each barrel. If she is pushing through the bit you have, I would bit her up so I have whoa, I will start more severe then back off once she starts responding, but this is only if you can ride off of her face.
It will take time and patience as fixing a horse is ten times harder then starting one. | |
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| FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-07-27 8:16 PM
Do a few exhibitions for a while, and anytime she tried to rush it, make her stop, back up, and trot the rest, if she won't trot, then walk it. Get it in her mind that rushing is not going to work anymore. Don't let her run until she quits taking things into her own hands. Go in THINKING race, then fix whatever she does wrong.
I would get out of the mullen mouth and into maybe a twisted dog bone, get something that will give you some bite when she runs into it, but isn't so much that she won't run with it. Sounds like it's not enough to keep her listening to what you are doing.
While I feel that this is a good approach to teach some horses to not get "rushy" with us, I feel that this horse needs essentially the opposite. She has her OWN idea to go fast and get ahead of you, so you need to teach her that that idea is going to mean working. I have a mare very similar to this. Every time she gets ahead of me, I work her little butt until she gives me one IOTA of relaxation, then we go back to doing whatever we were doing. Sometimes this entails trotting off for a few strides, and then stopping and standing still until I ask them to move, or when they really need it, I pull them in tight circles at a trot until I feel that relaxation.
If you do all of this and still feel a need for a bit change, then stay conservative but bump it up a little. I know these types of horses and they will frustrate the crap out of you and make you want to yank, so don't put something on her that will make her resent you even more. | |
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Member
Posts: 48
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-07-27 8:16 PM Do a few exhibitions for a while, and anytime she tried to rush it, make her stop, back up, and trot the rest, if she won't trot, then walk it. Get it in her mind that rushing is not going to work anymore. Don't let her run until she quits taking things into her own hands. Go in THINKING race, then fix whatever she does wrong. I would get out of the mullen mouth and into maybe a twisted dog bone, get something that will give you some bite when she runs into it, but isn't so much that she won't run with it. Sounds like it's not enough to keep her listening to what you are doing.
Thank you, thank you, thank you..... | |
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Member
Posts: 48
| Cheryl -
Yes, x-rays, the whole 9 nine yards. She normally doesn't blow off...only when she's doing her "rush thing." She, as a general rule is very, very tight on her barrels....
Thank you for your advice. :)
Edited by barrelrunner66 2015-07-28 8:52 AM
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Member
Posts: 48
| I feel that this horse needs essentially the opposite. She has her OWN idea to go fast and get ahead of you, so you need to teach her that that idea is going to mean working. I have a mare very similar to this. Every time she gets ahead of me, I work her little butt until she gives me one IOTA of relaxation, then we go back to doing whatever we were doing. Sometimes this entails trotting off for a few strides, and then stopping and standing still until I ask them to move, or when they really need it, I pull them in tight circles at a trot until I feel that relaxation. If you do all of this and still feel a need for a bit change, then stay conservative but bump it up a little. I know these types of horses and they will frustrate the crap out of you and make you want to yank, so don't put something on her that will make her resent you even more.
Good stuff....... :) | |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| barrelrunner66 - 2015-07-28 9:53 AM
I feel that this horse needs essentially the opposite. She has her OWN idea to go fast and get ahead of you, so you need to teach her that that idea is going to mean working. I have a mare very similar to this. Every time she gets ahead of me, I work her little butt until she gives me one IOTA of relaxation, then we go back to doing whatever we were doing. Sometimes this entails trotting off for a few strides, and then stopping and standing still until I ask them to move, or when they really need it, I pull them in tight circles at a trot until I feel that relaxation. If you do all of this and still feel a need for a bit change, then stay conservative but bump it up a little. I know these types of horses and they will frustrate the crap out of you and make you want to yank, so don't put something on her that will make her resent you even more.
Good stuff....... :)
I agree 100%. It would be a huge fight with my gelding if I tried to have him go slow, stop, back up, etc during an expo. That just wouldn't work for him.
This does. | |
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | My new guy came to me like this. He is very on edge all the time. Even when he's working like a charm, it's there. He is not one you can work harder until he relaxes, he doesn't tire. He also isn't one you can "punish" or lose your temper with bc he will just fall apart and lose his brain. You just have to stay quiet and calm, while gently reinforcing what you want him to do. And just quietly work through it. He is soo responsive and light, so you have to pay attention to the signals you're sending him.
As far as a bit suggestion to you...
I run him in a Cervi long shank small twist dogbone. I know he's been run in it previously so I went with what I had. It has enough bite I can get his attention when he has a moment, but he isn't afraid of it. You would cringe if you saw what they had worked up to using on him. A little girl was riding him and just couldn't control him so they kept putting more and more bit on him. So now he shakes his head. I hope to work past that.
Daily I ride him in a square snaffle draw bit. I like to do my daily riding in as little as possible and rarely in the bit I run in.
I could use less bit on him, but we need several "good" runs under our belt first. He is starting to realize I'm not going to snatch his face off. But he still tests me here and there. So after a few consistent runs, I'll move down to something lighter. He's so responsive I really think I could run him in a Little S on a good day. | |
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 Curious Mind
Posts: 2049
| I understand your frustration with your horse not listening but I'm not understanding why you would still need to exhibition a horse that's been to that many races? I don't exhibition my colts most of the time that's been to less than 10 shows. You said your horse launches only when she is at shows and wants to run. Why don't you skip training and just run her? All the really smart/great ones I have had wouldn't stand for me schooling them at races once they know their job. Wouldn't you get frustrated if you knew your job and wanted to do it but you were getting yanked back one minute then sent for your life the next? I think people way over do training barrels. It takes the try out of the ones who really want to work...anyway if it were me I would warm her up and run her. No exhibitions. Then if she screws up stay after the race to school. Give her the benefit of the doubt before you go to schooling | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| roanrider - 2015-07-28 1:29 PM
barrelrunner66 - 2015-07-28 9:53 AM
I feel that this horse needs essentially the opposite. She has her OWN idea to go fast and get ahead of you, so you need to teach her that that idea is going to mean working. I have a mare very similar to this. Every time she gets ahead of me, I work her little butt until she gives me one IOTA of relaxation, then we go back to doing whatever we were doing. Sometimes this entails trotting off for a few strides, and then stopping and standing still until I ask them to move, or when they really need it, I pull them in tight circles at a trot until I feel that relaxation. If you do all of this and still feel a need for a bit change, then stay conservative but bump it up a little. I know these types of horses and they will frustrate the crap out of you and make you want to yank, so don't put something on her that will make her resent you even more.
Good stuff....... :)
I agree 100%. It would be a huge fight with my gelding if I tried to have him go slow, stop, back up, etc during an expo. That just wouldn't work for him.
This does.
It is definitely messy the first few times, but it really gets a head back on them when thu arent allowed to run like they want. She wants to go faster than her rider wants, so by breaking her down she will learn that by going faster, she is only going to go slower in the end. Some horses like this, and some horses don't. I just suggested what I do on mine when they get hot and heavy. | |
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Member
Posts: 48
| MSDash - 2015-07-28 4:42 PM
I understand your frustration with your horse not listening but I'm not understanding why you would still need to exhibition a horse that's been to that many races? I don't exhibition my colts most of the time that's been to less than 10 shows. You said your horse launches only when she is at shows and wants to run. Why don't you skip training and just run her? All the really smart/great ones I have had wouldn't stand for me schooling them at races once they know their job. Wouldn't you get frustrated if you knew your job and wanted to do it but you were getting yanked back one minute then sent for your life the next? I think people way over do training barrels. It takes the try out of the ones who really want to work...anyway if it were me I would warm her up and run her. No exhibitions. Then if she screws up stay after the race to school. Give her the benefit of the doubt before you go to schooling
That's a really good question! I wasn't clear! I have just started (like last weekend) doing trainers on her. We usually just run but things have gotten so inconsistent that I thought we needed to slow back down. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I would work on downward transitions and also treat her for ulcers. Ulcers cause problems "between the ears." Nobody would recognize my horse after ulcer treatment. Completely new animal and winning. | |
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Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | My gelding went into over drive on anxiety the last few runs (and he is sound, it's been a long ridiculous road but he's feeling great and turned into a beast).
. We haven't done exhibitions in years. I picked up great tips at Marne Loosenorts clinic and it all revolved around horsemanship, getting the horse soft and supple in every position around and in the pattern, when you get control over every part and they are listening and thinking, that rush leaves. Also switched up to slow work in a different bridle. Even different but that offered a different feel. So glad I went and was a able to feel some moves I haven't felt on him in a while. | |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Let me first say that the big misnomer is that cutting bred horses are quiet... Cutters can be really nervous horses, LOTS of them are. There are just as many blown up cutters as there are blown up barrel horses. The problem with this type of horse it that most of their anxiety is internal rather than external. Speed is what gets them. I'm guessing that she "scrambles" around her barrels and wastes precious time because she does it more scared than with confidence.
She probably fooled you early in her training and made you think she was ready to add speed when in fact she wasn't. I would slow her back down and keep her at a speed that she can stay relaxed. Make the barrels just another exercise. Scatter them around the arena and just lope around them in random order while doing other things like loping circles, stops and slow relaxed rollbacks. Give her some Mare Magic and easy on the grain. You're feed program can help a lot too.
Good luck.
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | grinandbareit - 2015-07-29 10:21 PM Let me first say that the big misnomer is that cutting bred horses are quiet... Cutters can be really nervous horses, LOTS of them are. There are just as many blown up cutters as there are blown up barrel horses. The problem with this type of horse it that most of their anxiety is internal rather than external. Speed is what gets them. I'm guessing that she "scrambles" around her barrels and wastes precious time because she does it more scared than with confidence. She probably fooled you early in her training and made you think she was ready to add speed when in fact she wasn't. I would slow her back down and keep her at a speed that she can stay relaxed. Make the barrels just another exercise. Scatter them around the arena and just lope around them in random order while doing other things like loping circles, stops and slow relaxed rollbacks. Give her some Mare Magic and easy on the grain. You're feed program can help a lot too. Good luck.
Yes!! This!!
The gelding I mentioned above is this to a tee. He is all cutting bred and had an early career as a cutter. He has also had a few wrecks that I know of in the past. I also know he's been "punished" pretty hard. So if he doesn't know what you're asking, gets confused, or thinks he "messed up", he panics. My job is to give him confidence and keep my cool. | |
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