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Location: Idaho | Who all feeds more grains then hay? I veed beet pulp, 12% horse feed and mbc....thinking about adding Timothy pellets. I have one horse who is not liking hay! My to colts look great.. .just trying to change things up for the other! Want y'alls opinions on upping grains and lowering hay....he is turned out for a couple hours a day. |
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
  
| Horses guts need hay to digest grain if you cut more hay out of a diet your puting your horse at crisk for weight loss, gut ph imbalance, colic and a slew of other things. Before I would up grain maybe find a different hay |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | Personally after reading the various posts on this forum, other forums and some articles by vets. I am changing my feeding program to oats, a good mineral/vitamin supplement and all they grass hay they can eat. I have always fed more hay than feed anyway. I read where a horse's diet should consist of at least 90% forage. I am not sure how this change in my feeding program will play out but I am willing to give it a try after seeing pictures of some people's horses who are feeding a simliar plan as this. They look great! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Depends on what you call grains. If you are talking the traditional sense, then no, I think it is a bad idea. Horses are not designed to function that way (though they certainly can). It will increase risk of ulcers, founder, colic, and actually decrease his ability to digest forage by altering the ph in the hindgut and decreasing the roughage digesting bacteria.
If you are talking a concentrate that is not grain, you do not want to feed more than is recommended by the manufacturer (however I feel they are on the high side usually, because they want you to use more of their feed and less hay). Even on these types, I feel it is best to never cross the 50% mark with your concentrate.
If you are talking about a high roughage feed or a complete pellet, then yes you can feed more concentrate than grain, up to the complete pellet as a sole ration.
These are my opinion and I hope it helps with your question. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Ampratt, With that diet, I think it is a very good that you are adding a good vitamin/mineral supplement. Most grass hays have less nutrients than you would ideally want and grains such as oats also have limited nutrients. One concern if you feed grass hay and grain is that you could put your horse in a situation where they had an inverse Ca:Ph ratio. This over time would rob the bones of calcium and make the skeletal system weak. Also, you could even be on the low to too low end of protein if your hay is not really good grass. For this reason, I feel it is very important to provide a good vitamin and mineral supplement with this program. If your grass hay is below 12%, I would recommend using a supplement with added protein or feeding additional alfalfa, in any format you choose.
Edited by Tdove 2015-08-06 9:06 AM
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Hay should be the basis on every horses diet. The only exception to that would be senior horses that can no longer chew long stem hay (but they should still be given soaked cubes, chaff, soaked beet pulp, etc. depending on what they can and will eat. Horses NEED LONG STEM fiber (NOT pellets) for digestion. Hay pellets and beet pulp can account for some of their forage, but pasture and normal hay should make up almost their entire diet. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | Tdove - 2015-08-06 9:02 AM
Ampratt, With that diet, I think it is a very good that you are adding a good vitamin/mineral supplement. Most grass hays have less nutrients than you would ideally want and grains such as oats also have limited nutrients. One concern if you feed grass hay and grain is that you could put your horse in a situation where they had an inverse Ca:Ph ratio. This over time would rob the bones of calcium and make the skeletal system weak. Also, you could even be on the low to too low end of protein if your hay is not really good grass. For this reason, I feel it is very important to provide a good vitamin and mineral supplement with this program. If your grass hay is below 12%, I would recommend using a supplement with added protein or feeding additional alfalfa, in any format you choose.
Absolutely, I would never feed just oats and hay without supplementing the vitamins/minerals. I have researched alot before attempting to go this route and there are some very good supplements made specifically for oats/grass hay diet that address the vitamin/mineral supplementation as well as the Phos/Calcium issue. |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | I feed Alfalfa no grain. I have for decades and the horses are healthy. I will give a pelleted feed with supplements if needed to get the supplement ate. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | What is better whole oats or crimped oats? |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | My horses get good quality bermuda round bales 24/7. I also feed alfalfa pellets. My stud gets Blue Bonnet but I am looking to simplify my program. For vitamins/minerals I love the Adeptus Augment. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| You are in Idaho? You're so lucky, that's where some of the nations best alfalfa comes from! I'd try free choice alfalfa, pull the grain, and see if he starts to looking and feeling better! Check the cutting though, first cutting can be too much for them. also, they don't like to eat what they can't digest, have you tried a course of probiotic paste? It might help. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | Depends on who you ask. I feed whole oats (on the advise of a vet who is also knowledgeable in equine nutrition) and was advised whole oats are not that much lower in nutritional value as the crimped. Whole oats store longer. As stated earlier, unless your horse is out on nice pasture it's best to include a COMPLETE vitamin/mineral supplement when feeding oats and high quality hay or alfalfa hay. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | skye - 2015-08-06 9:57 AM
I feed Alfalfa no grain. I have for decades and the horses are healthy. I will give a pelleted feed with supplements if needed to get the supplement ate.
Are your horses dry lotted or have access to pasture? |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Hold on....why would you want to lower the amount of hay they get? |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Hay or pasture needs to be the overwhelming base of your horses diet. The reasons why high concentrate amounts are bad could and do fill whole books on the subject. A horse will digest large inclusions of grain based feeds, but at the expense of its ability to digest its most natural source of nutrition, Its hay or pasture. They can not completely digest both at the same time. As to the Cal/phos ratio in grass hay. In almost every test we have run, grass hays today are, in fact, higher in calcium than phos. I know this is not what your text books tell you, but soils, fertilizers and hybrid grasses have changed this. I do still see some grasses in Kansas that are higher in phos, but not many. |
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Location: Idaho | actually no...I moved to S.E. Texas 2 years ago. I have tried different hays and alfalfa...this horse will eat it good for MAYBE a week then nothing. Im getting so frustrated with him! I almost had to put him down this last winter...long story but had a MAJOR reaction to Ivermectin and still working on getting him back up to parr!
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Location: Idaho | Im not wanting to lower it....he simply WONT EAT IT!!! like I said...he will eat it good for about a week then NOTHING.....I have HIGH quality hay...been tested etc...my other two are doing great but this one is throwing me for a loop!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | winwillows - 2015-08-06 12:15 PM
Hay or pasture needs to be the overwhelming base of your horses diet. The reasons why high concentrate amounts are bad could and do fill whole books on the subject. A horse will digest large inclusions of grain based feeds, but at the expense of its ability to digest its most natural source of nutrition, Its hay or pasture. They can not completely digest both at the same time. As to the Cal/phos ratio in grass hay. In almost every test we have run, grass hays today are, in fact, higher in calcium than phos. I know this is not what your text books tell you, but soils, fertilizers and hybrid grasses have changed this. I do still see some grasses in Kansas that are higher in phos, but not many.
Thanks for sharing the information on the Phos/Cal in regards to grass hay. My vet told me the same thing but its nice to hear from someone else as well. She also stated that most of the COMPLETE vit/min supplements made to be fed w/ grass hay contain alfalfa meal, soybean meal, distilled grains, rice brans etc which are a great source of protein. I understand that the demands we put on our horses have changed but I often wonder if some of the issues we have with horses today can't help but result from all the concentrated feeds etc. We occassional fed oats and our horses were on pasture while I was growing up and it seemed like they were always healthy with the bulk of their meal being forage. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | keep'nup - 2015-08-06 12:23 PM
Im not wanting to lower it....he simply WONT EAT IT!!! like I said...he will eat it good for about a week then NOTHING.....I have HIGH quality hay...been tested etc...my other two are doing great but this one is throwing me for a loop!
That must be frustrating for sure. I know it's not the ideal feeding program but I have a senior horse that can't sustain himself on just hay as his only forage. I feed his regular grain ration and in an attempt to at least try and get as much forage in him as possible, I feed beet pulp and rotate out timothy or alfalfa pellets, Standlee chopped hay in a bag (timothy or alfalfa), when he stops eating one. He does what your horse does. He eats one type for a while then stops, so I rotate. Probably not a great idea but its kept him alive and looking decent for over 6 years. I also still give him regular hay and he eats some. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | When were his teeth last done? |
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