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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
    
Location: Georgia | I'll try to keep this short. Im just looking for suggestions.
I have a 17 year old mare that I've owned for 10 years. Throughout these 10 years she has always had some kind of gate issue. It's always been frustrating but managable. We have dealt with it for this long because once she gets in there she works like a champ. We have had her vetted multiple times over the years, each time she has come up with a clean report. Lately, she has been refusing worse than she ever has. She refuses 100% of the time and has been acting out (rearing, kicking out, etc.). We took her to a university last month and had a FULL exam done on her. We covered every base imaginable. The only thing that showed up on x-rays was that she is thin soled. The vet injected her coffins (mainly to pacify us I think) and suggested that we put shoes on her. I ran her this weekend and she was just as bad...maybe worse.
She is a great horse outside the arena. She has awesome manners, quiet on the ground, and sane as they come. I would trust this mare with anything. I'm just finally at my breaking point. Do you guys have any suggestions? I've tried taking her slow for a while and it works decently for a few months but she reverts back to refusing. We even gave her 2 years off and she came back the same. I honestly believe its all in her head. I KNOW she is sound and I truly believe she is not in pain. I'm not one to give my horses any drugs or things of that sort but at this point im open to anything.
Edited by Runninbay 2015-09-09 8:32 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Did you scope for ulcers?
Could she be a bleeder? You would have to do a bronscopy immediately after running to see if she is a true bleeder.
Did you ultrasound her ovaries, did you do a uterine culture?
And maybe the horse is burnt out, some horses don't like barrels. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | cheryl makofka - 2015-09-09 9:59 PM Did you scope for ulcers? Could she be a bleeder? You would have to do a bronscopy immediately after running to see if she is a true bleeder. Did you ultrasound her ovaries, did you do a uterine culture? And maybe the horse is burnt out, some horses don't like barrels.
Yes we have checked her for ulcers and had her scoped for bleeding. I swear we have covered everything! We have never had her ovaries looked at becasue she isnt "marish" at all. We bred her in 2013 and she had a filly in 2014. Did several cultures at that time and she was always clean. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I would ultrasound the ovaries, to rule this out, mares don't need to be Marish to be in pain.
Possibly she is wind sucking when she runs and may need to be sutured, does she wring her tail when she runs.
And just to clarify, you have had hocks, stifles, all joints xrayed? I have a 23 yr old who at 6 had horrible joints, at 18 a different vet passed him on a flexion test, some horses don't show pain on flexion tests.
Also are you using a equine lameness specialist? If not you need to |
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 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| I'd take a closer look at the front feet. I've had 3 horses with gate issues, and they all had front foot problems. If they felt good and we were managing the pain, they would go right in with no fuss. But I could tell when they were getting painful because they would begin to refuse. I would probably look at putting front shoes with pads and equipack.
I would also take a closer look at the reproductive tract. If she does this year-round I would guess it has less to do with a cycling issue and more likely would be something like wind-sucking. Putting a caslicks in is easy and inexpensive.
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| A horse will do this when sore. I would start trying to eliminate things. Go to Walmart and buy a bottle of aloe Vera juice. Give it about thirty minutes before feeding. 1 ounce morning and night. If she has ulcers you will see a difference. Do you give Bute ? My vet always suggests giving Bute and see if it makes a difference. If it does then there is a pain issue. I would also consider putting her on Cur Ost Total Support. Several people on here including myself are having unbelievable results giving it to their horses. |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | A 17 YO horse that has been running that long is going to have "something" wrong somewhere. At the very least, she has to have some arthritis going on.... If she is this bad at the gate -- and getting worse -- she is trying to tell you "I am done." I'd retire her. In my opinion it is not worth putting one through the misery at that point in their life.
I had a fabulous show gelding -- world quality -- who suddenly became very anxious about being stalled and going to a show. He was the best otherwise. He had a heart condition that was causing him pain and tried his best to tell us he was not comfortable with show stress -- he had a mild heart attack at a show which put us on the path to diagnosing his issue. We were at our wits end about what was going on since he had always been so steady and quiet at shows and in his show stall.... We went through two unsettled shows prior to getting our answer -- I really, really listen to my horses now - he taught me to do that. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | I know you say she has been totally examined and I believe that. But just for my own piece of mind if she was mine I would start her on a bute regimine or previcox about 2 weeks prior to my next race and all the way through it. If there was no improvement then maybe you could eliminate the pain possiblity although it might take more then one run for me to be convinced. But an over all pain reducer that has had time to eliminate the pain would be difinitive for me along with the vet exams you have done. Beyond that I would then move onto doing the same thing with Ulcerguard just to double illiminate that possiblity.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | I would treat her for ulcers. A FULL treatment. You can't scope the hind gut for ulcers - so they could be back there. Just speaking from experience :) I know how frustrating it can be to try and find the problem. This could help to rule out another issue. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | Jenbabe - 2015-09-09 11:12 PM
I'd take a closer look at the front feet. I've had 3 horses with gate issues, and they all had front foot problems. If they felt good and we were managing the pain, they would go right in with no fuss. But I could tell when they were getting painful because they would begin to refuse. I would probably look at putting front shoes with pads and equipack.
I would also take a closer look at the reproductive tract. If she does this year-round I would guess it has less to do with a cycling issue and more likely would be something like wind-sucking. Putting a caslicks in is easy and inexpensive.
I agree here. Take a closer look at the front feet. Mine was an absolute rock and easy ride when only asked to pleasure ride or slow work barrels but he eventually started crow hopping around the first, trying to refuse going in and just becoming very nervous/anxious before a run. Had xrays done and he had some changes to his navicular bone. The torque in the turn was just enough to cause pain. Did Tildren, put some shoes on him and he is absolutley fine now.
I also had a wind sucker, did the caslick and it helped alot. |
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 Texas Lone Star
Posts: 5318
Location: where ever my L/Q trl is parked | Delta Cowgirl - 2015-09-10 5:54 AM A 17 YO horse that has been running that long is going to have "something" wrong somewhere. At the very least, she has to have some arthritis going on.... If she is this bad at the gate -- and getting worse -- she is trying to tell you "I am done." I'd retire her. In my opinion it is not worth putting one through the misery at that point in their life. I had a fabulous show gelding -- world quality -- who suddenly became very anxious about being stalled and going to a show. He was the best otherwise. He had a heart condition that was causing him pain and tried his best to tell us he was not comfortable with show stress -- he had a mild heart attack at a show which put us on the path to diagnosing his issue. We were at our wits end about what was going on since he had always been so steady and quiet at shows and in his show stall.... We went through two unsettled shows prior to getting our answer -- I really, really listen to my horses now - he taught me to do that.
I totally agree....
I had a gelding that was a great horse to be around, do anything with, raised on a ranch so knew cattle and sorting. Bought him when he was 12 and he was promoted as an open barrel horse. I ran him for 8 months then he started rearing, kicking out when we needed to go down the alley to run. I had him totally checked out even ulcers scoping. Finally decided after 3 months of this I decided to quit the barrels. My husband took him to team pen on which he had training and he never gave him any problems with the gate. As soon as he saw the cattle he knew what he had to do. We never had another problem with the rearing or any other problems.
So I would suggest take him away from the pattern start something totally different- trail riding, cow work, roping etc. Maybe a year or so away from the cans might help. Good luck- it sucks having a good barrel horse deciding its not what they want to do.
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | ampratt - 2015-09-10 7:10 AM Jenbabe - 2015-09-09 11:12 PM I'd take a closer look at the front feet. I've had 3 horses with gate issues, and they all had front foot problems. If they felt good and we were managing the pain, they would go right in with no fuss. But I could tell when they were getting painful because they would begin to refuse. I would probably look at putting front shoes with pads and equipack. I would also take a closer look at the reproductive tract. If she does this year-round I would guess it has less to do with a cycling issue and more likely would be something like wind-sucking. Putting a caslicks in is easy and inexpensive. I agree here. Take a closer look at the front feet. Mine was an absolute rock and easy ride when only asked to pleasure ride or slow work barrels but he eventually started crow hopping around the first, trying to refuse going in and just becoming very nervous/anxious before a run. Had xrays done and he had some changes to his navicular bone. The torque in the turn was just enough to cause pain. Did Tildren, put some shoes on him and he is absolutley fine now. I also had a wind sucker, did the caslick and it helped alot.
agreed. She may need more than just shoes if she's thin soled. Also make sure your farrier is top notch. Also another thing to consider is rear suspensories. I had a mare that was not lame but started refusing. She ended up having a mild strain. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I know just this year my mare was training great, her warm ups were all looking great, etc. But at the very first big race I took her to this year, she blew the first barrel. She has a bad history of this habit. I took her immediately and started schooling in the warmup pen. I just figured she was being a first barrel witch like usual, it wasn't until probably 15 minutes of cramming RATE into her that I got off and started walking her back and she started limping on the rocks. She has front shoes with heel pads on, so this was weird. It turned out she had ripped her front shoe off running through the alley, and that's why she blew it (she is not sound without shoes on, but her adrenaline hadn't worn down for her to start limping while I was riding here). We had someone put the front shoe back on, but she only got lamer as the night went on. By the next morning, she wouldn't put any weight on that foot. We took her to the vet and had her x-rayed and her sole was non-existant. There was not even an inch of sole on her front feet.
Now she has 2 inch hard plastic sole covers with grips, and she hasn't taken a lame step since, and hasn't blown past a barrel. We would've never thought to x-ray her front feet had she not started limping. So if you haven't, that may be something to consider. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Thank you guys for all the replies. Some great suggestions. I know several of you mentioned ulcers. Every vet we have ever talked to said she is not a candidate for treatment because she doesn't show any physical signs. She is peppy, alert, a great eater and her coat is always beautiful. I understand there is more to it than that but that's why she has never been treated. It is definitely something to consider. I think we will look into having caslicks done on her because we have no plans to breed. As far as her front feet, I will be speaking with my farrier in great depth about them. Vet says she literally has 1/2 inch of soul which I know is terrible. I will definitely talk with him about pads with the shoes.
I understand at 17 she isn't a spring chicken. It's just very hard to give up on this horse. |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Maybe she really just hates the job. Why keep forcing her? I know, not a popular opinion but sometimes, I think we should just listen to the horse. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | If she were mine, I would bute or Previcoxx her for the next few weeks, I would have someone hand walk me in-if she doesn't allow a hand walker, I would give her just a bit of a calming supplement, I like chill ultra. I may also give some to the rider :) I think as time goes on and we think we KNOW there is nothing wrong, the gate issue itself becomes a personal problem with learning self control-look at it from her standpoint-most horses aren't witchy without a reason. I too would probably say you have either front foot or hock/stifle issues, along with a little anxiety from the rider. Experiment some-she will need to learn the race doesn't hurt and that may take a week or two.
Funny story: my daughter is running my good horse-they are both 12-he's intense, quick, fast and smart, and known to have hock issues, she's a good rider but is a little intimidated and gets anxious easy. having some gate issues, I've been using the combo above the day of the race-which includes me hand walking them to the gate and at the last race, the horse actually buddied right up to me like "hey thanks for the solid non nervous person to help me out" I've barely had to touch him to get him to go in and my daughter is learning to calm down and control herself, which is "most" of this horses issue-IF he gets to really fighting the gate with me next to him-he will be in to be injected ASAP-what a difference it makes! |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| Runninbay - 2015-09-10 10:08 AM
Thank you guys for all the replies. Some great suggestions. I know several of you mentioned ulcers. Every vet we have ever talked to said she is not a candidate for treatment because she doesn't show any physical signs. She is peppy, alert, a great eater and her coat is always beautiful. I understand there is more to it than that but that's why she has never been treated. It is definitely something to consider. I think we will look into having caslicks done on her because we have no plans to breed. As far as her front feet, I will be speaking with my farrier in great depth about them. Vet says she literally has 1/2 inch of soul which I know is terrible. I will definitely talk with him about pads with the shoes.
I understand at 17 she isn't a spring chicken. It's just very hard to give up on this horse.
I would definately have her stitched and it is very simple to remove if you ever do decide to breed her. This would be a cheap step that might very well fix your problem. - Keep us posted! |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-10 9:15 AM I know just this year my mare was training great, her warm ups were all looking great, etc. But at the very first big race I took her to this year, she blew the first barrel. She has a bad history of this habit. I took her immediately and started schooling in the warmup pen. I just figured she was being a first barrel witch like usual, it wasn't until probably 15 minutes of cramming RATE into her that I got off and started walking her back and she started limping on the rocks. She has front shoes with heel pads on, so this was weird. It turned out she had ripped her front shoe off running through the alley, and that's why she blew it (she is not sound without shoes on, but her adrenaline hadn't worn down for her to start limping while I was riding here). We had someone put the front shoe back on, but she only got lamer as the night went on. By the next morning, she wouldn't put any weight on that foot. We took her to the vet and had her x-rayed and her sole was non-existant. There was not even an inch of sole on her front feet. Now she has 2 inch hard plastic sole covers with grips, and she hasn't taken a lame step since, and hasn't blown past a barrel. We would've never thought to x-ray her front feet had she not started limping. So if you haven't, that may be something to consider.
I would like to see pictures of this set-up... Horses won't have an inch of sole anyway, typically they're around 1/2" thick. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | When do you get her near the alley? Do you kind of hang out there waiting for your turn or do you wait and take her to the gate when you are called? My guy does not like camping out anywhere near the alley. He will ride in the warmup area pretty dead headed but as soon as he notices other runners coming and going he gets amped up. He probably feels me as well. I keep him away until our name is called for our run. He got worse the more seasoned he became. He's kind of a hot pistol. |
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| Runninbay - 2015-09-10 10:08 AM
Thank you guys for all the replies. Some great suggestions. I know several of you mentioned ulcers. Every vet we have ever talked to said she is not a candidate for treatment because she doesn't show any physical signs. She is peppy, alert, a great eater and her coat is always beautiful. I understand there is more to it than that but that's why she has never been treated. It is definitely something to consider. I think we will look into having caslicks done on her because we have no plans to breed. As far as her front feet, I will be speaking with my farrier in great depth about them. Vet says she literally has 1/2 inch of soul which I know is terrible. I will definitely talk with him about pads with the shoes.
I understand at 17 she isn't a spring chicken. It's just very hard to give up on this horse.
We have an older gelding that has had hock issues since we've owned him. Never ever thought to look closer at his front feet. We recently switched farriers and he commented about thrush in the front feet. Maybe that's why we started to look closer at them. Anyways, we decided to put pads with Magic Cushion on his fronts, and I can't believe how much better be travels.
Also, something I'll do about ulcers instead of buying a big treatment is just to get the generic omeprazole for humans. I know it's not near enough of a dose to treat a horse. But I have a gelding that has a recurrent eye issue that I know bothers him. When I haul he'll develop very loose stools. So I started dropping 2 pills in his grain daily and it really did make a difference. That might be a cheap option to try. This horse is fat and healthy, and just to look at him you'd never guess he was having issues.
My thoughts are that if a horse is acting this way there is a reason. Either they are sore or they hate their job. If they are sore, you've just got to keep digging until you figure out the cause. If they hate their job, then I start looking at how they're being ridden. I have ridden several horses that just didn't want to be barrel horses, but they still went in the arena and did their job. But when I see horses refuse the gate or run off, etc. I always take a close look at how they're being ridden. A rider that yanks on their mouth, gives mixed cues, is inconsistent, etc. is going to stress out a horse and make them want to avoid the situation. Based on what you've said about your mare, I would assume this is a pain issue and not a rider issue. |
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