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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
   
Location: North Dakota | My entire life, I've never had a good pole bending horse. Maybe that means I'm not a good pole bending rider.
This year, Red and I just struggled horribly on the poles. We don't run them very often, maybe it was 6 times this year, but I don't think we had a clean run at all this year. It's frustrating because he can do slow work like a champ. He's very broke; I can move him anywhere. On the side, I also do reining with him and we've been working on flying lead changes and we do work with a reining trainer. They aren't the easiest for him but he can do them provided I've got his body parts in all the right places. So I wonder if his "ease" of flying lead changes (or lack thereof) affects his poles. Or maybe it's just all ME.
Some of you may have seen my other post, but he is out of commision for the rest of the year, so we'll have to wait until next year to work on anything. But I was wondering if anyone can give me some pointers for his pole bending.
This is the only video I have from this year for pole bending. It was ... okay. I was happy with his speed (it was a 23-something run) but we've been having particular trouble with that 2nd pole this year. I ALWAYS have a problem with his middle pole (the one you turn to come back and weave a second time). He never wants to turn it. Again, he can do it perfect with slow work but once we kick up the speed, he just does not rate for it and wants to blow back to the gate, even though I KNOW he KNOWS that we need to turn it. I'm at a loss for what to do, besides getting on his mouth when we get there.
https://youtu.be/27132O2ndZ0
This was from last year, but it was his best pole bending run to date. I was tickled with his time! And this was the only run where that middle pole was nice and I didn't have to fight him to turn it. Why? I don't know.
https://youtu.be/ErljxPts_3k
These two runs were also from last year.
https://youtu.be/zy99JLszawk
https://youtu.be/2FVFtrC9TbI
Maybe I'm being too hard on myself because we really don't do poles all that often, when it's taken us so long to "get together" on our barrel racing and we do that almost every weekend. But gosh darn it, I just want to save my KNEES and have a clean pole run without having to work so darned hard for it! We aren't doing the poles at a high level (just the local playdays) but I would really like to have a nice pole horse for a change.
FYI, when we do slow work, I use the Ken Smith method where you are pretty much "sidepassing" in-between the poles. (Although I've never been to any of his clinics; that's just what we do).
Any advice?
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
 
Location: Nebraska | You look like you're doing a lot with your hands. I would work on quieting them down and using your legs to help you weave. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | brlracerchick - 2015-09-14 2:19 PM You look like you're doing a lot with your hands. I would work on quieting them down and using your legs to help you weave.
I think part of it is that "trust" thing. I know he's good with leg cues but I don't trust him enough to leave my hands alone.
I think next year I need to do lots of slow work and do nothing but legs, legs, legs, and get us both confident with it.
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| First of all there is no rate on the end poles especially the first turn. You lost a lot of time there. In moving through the poles, you do not hold the horse off the pole with the outside rein. When your leg gets to the pole you are past it and you need to move the horse over to get ready for the next pole. You need to practice two tracking without poles. Lift your rein and use the leg on that side to move over. Go a little way then do the opposite side. Start at a walk then move up to a trot. You move the horse over in barrels with the inside rein and it is the same for poles. Stay light so you can stay out of the horse's face. Make sure your poles are 21 feet apart and do the same thing through the poles at a walk until you have complete control of the horse and it is moving nicely when you pick up. Then speed up to a trot then a lope. This is not something you can do in one or two days. That horse's nose should be tipped in toward the pole. I run against Edwin Cameron fairly often and he runs consistent 19's on poles. He rarely ever hits one. He is fun to watch. Personally, I like to keep my hands low but a lot of people like to get their hands farther up the horse's neck. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1767
Location: California | On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO.
https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I would try sitting on your butt some more and using your hands less. You pull down a lot. Sitting back/down will help you use your legs better. The video where he turns the end pole well--you really help him and get his nose a lot better. |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-14 9:52 PM
On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO. https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
Well, that bad boy definitely had those end poles down pat. Nice run. The bad thing is that you cannot see your hands other than you can see you are not all over his face. Pole bending definitely takes quiet hands. This is how you stay off their head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZRUuO_J-r4 |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| hammer_time - 2015-09-14 11:04 PM I would try sitting on your butt some more and using your hands less. You pull down a lot. Sitting back/down will help you use your legs better. The video where he turns the end pole well--you really help him and get his nose a lot better.
I agree. I took our retired pole horse to a big show a couple of years ago. First run I gathered the reins up and had his head snd ran a 22 something. Next go I let the reins way out, kept one hand on the horn and let him go, we ran a 20.9, keep in mind I don't ride that well and blew our first turn. It helped me to put weight in that outside stirrup of the weave, it kept my hips shifting with his weave, kept us in the middle and me off his head. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6yLc_hDatDQ |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-14 9:52 PM On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO.
https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
So you are the one that bought "Sue"? We came ever so close to buying that horse from David. We went to Wisc and bought another horse at the last minute. Mainly because Sue was bad about chewing on the rubber gromments on David's horse trailer. It was a huge mistake to miss on him. Especially over something so trivial.
We always wished we hadn't let him get away. Great, great horse!! |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | streakysox - 2015-09-14 9:23 PM First of all there is no rate on the end poles especially the first turn. You lost a lot of time there. In moving through the poles, you do not hold the horse off the pole with the outside rein. When your leg gets to the pole you are past it and you need to move the horse over to get ready for the next pole. You need to practice two tracking without poles. Lift your rein and use the leg on that side to move over. Go a little way then do the opposite side. Start at a walk then move up to a trot. You move the horse over in barrels with the inside rein and it is the same for poles. Stay light so you can stay out of the horse's face. Make sure your poles are 21 feet apart and do the same thing through the poles at a walk until you have complete control of the horse and it is moving nicely when you pick up. Then speed up to a trot then a lope. This is not something you can do in one or two days. That horse's nose should be tipped in toward the pole. I run against Edwin Cameron fairly often and he runs consistent 19's on poles. He rarely ever hits one. He is fun to watch. Personally, I like to keep my hands low but a lot of people like to get their hands farther up the horse's neck.
That is exactly what I do in slow work.
Poles are 21 feet apart exactly.
Keep my hands steady, nose slightly bent to the inside, inside leg has him two-track in-between poles.
I can do that at a walk, trot, or lope. Seems like when we add the speed is when we have trouble.
I can two-track him anywhere. I can do a flying lead change (properly, with legs) anywhere.
For that middle pole, in slow work, I will actually make him STOP there. I work so hard on 'rate' on that spot, it kills me that it just goes out the door when we actually run.
One or two days? We've been doing poles for two years, although as I said, we don't run them that much because they are only available if we go to a gaming show. So no, this isn't something I am trying to accomplish overnight.
I think the part I am having the most trouble with is how do I translate what we do in slow work, to the speed?
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-14 9:52 PM On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO.
https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
I do need to do a better job of relying on my LEGS instead of my hands. He anticipates and so I resort to that (pulling his head away) to keep him from plowing the pole over with his shoulder.
Not sure which video you were talking about, but they're 21 feet. Always get measured.
Maybe I didn't phrase it right, but this is Ken Smith.
https://youtu.be/gF2nK2r87mw
My problem is being able to actually get past the pole, instead of smashing my knee cap on it.
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 Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | Good advice on here. It looked to me like your bit might be pinching him a little. On that first turn his head goes up and he's a little off until he gets his head back. I think with some slow work he'll be really nice. In the areas where he doesn't need any help he looks like he really likes running them.
Edited to add: I really like him!
Edited by Timber Creek 2015-09-15 8:24 AM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| How often are you practicing them?
If your only able to run them at shows, your not going to be able to practice riding at a fast pace like you need to. Doing slow work then going to a show and running them doesn't prepare you. You have to practice at a fast pace too. my horse can lope a perfect set of poles all day, once he's pushed its hard to keep up and he starts getting closer and closer to the poles. Therefore I've stopped pushing him so hard and am just asking for clean runs, not as fast but I keep all the poles up. I'm doing this until we can get better patterns. |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | You've gotten some good advice on here that I'd +1 on. The only thing that I can add is to just say that running poles is a lot like dancing. If you worry too much about your individuals steps and foot movement, you're gonna mess up. Poles are more about getting into the right rhythm and feel than anything else. That's why with the good pole benders, you don't see much hand movement because it's more riding with your legs and matching the sway with your body. If you aren't feeling that with your slow work, take your saddle off and practice riding bareback until you do. You've got to move with his body and glide him through the poles -- just like you two were dancing your way through. It's all about the feel. |
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Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | Red Raider - 2015-09-15 11:20 AM You've gotten some good advice on here that I'd +1 on. The only thing that I can add is to just say that running poles is a lot like dancing. If you worry too much about your individuals steps and foot movement, you're gonna mess up. Poles are more about getting into the right rhythm and feel than anything else. That's why with the good pole benders, you don't see much hand movement because it's more riding with your legs and matching the sway with your body. If you aren't feeling that with your slow work, take your saddle off and practice riding bareback until you do. You've got to move with his body and glide him through the poles -- just like you two were dancing your way through. It's all about the feel.
I like this! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
| The two really good pole horse I've had picked up poles quickly, I really think they absolutely love poles. Just like you, we didn't get to work them except at shows, mostly. I did eventually get a set of poles for working at home, but I still didn't work them often. Like the above poster said, it is all about the rhythm, and letting them find their rhythm and you get with it and stay out of their way.
I have 3 horses. My 2 good pole horses are great pole horses. The other is an average, hit or miss, pole horse. The two good horses are only average barrel horses, and the average pole horse is a fantastic barrel horse. It could be that I've adapted overtime, but my average pole horse is a shorter, four wheel drive type horse. She's just too short and compact and pogo sticky to get into a smooth rhythm on the poles. The two good pole horses are both bigger strided horses, so it's very easy for them to swap directions between poles.
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 Veteran
Posts: 133
Location: texas | brlracerchick - 2015-09-14 2:19 PM
You look like you're doing a lot with your hands. I would work on quieting them down and using your legs to help you weave.
^^^ this! poles are suppose to be mostly feet doing the work not hands. work on getting him to work off your feet and feel the pressure to make him move over. what i do with mine is input my hands down in slow work and basily use just my feet to make him weave! Using your hands like that and throwing his head around is most likely slowing him down, throwing him off and getting in his mouth too much. but the videos look great!!! nice horse ican tell hes trying for you!!  |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | TimberCreek: The first link I had on my post, I actually was using a Little S hack that I just switched him to. For barrels, he seems "happier" in that. For the other videos, I was previously using a Jr. Cowhorse with a smooth mouthpiece, dogbone center, and I always use bit guards. Teeth are checked every year. Chiro is done 3 times a year minimum; more if there is an issue (he's never had one). He shouldn't have a medical reason to throw his head; he's just kinda touchy sometimes.
Lucky86: Probably not practicing as often as I should. This year, maybe only a couple times a month? I should clarify while we do slow work at home, I try to make competition speed runs at home too. They usually amount to the same thing...
Red Raider: That basically what my mom said to me at the last show we did, that I'm probably worrying about things too much and over-thinking it, and getting tense about it.
Good tips everyone. It gives me something to plan to work on next year, after he's healed up.
Edited by r_beau 2015-09-15 5:39 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1767
Location: California | jd&ez - 2015-09-15 4:51 AM Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-14 9:52 PM On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO.
https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
We always wished we hadn't let him get away. Great, great horse!!
No, I had "Ziffel" aka: The Flying Bug. Ross trained him, but I got him from Stephanie after she won the AQHA World on him. |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-15 7:19 PM jd&ez - 2015-09-15 4:51 AM Calibarrelrcr - 2015-09-14 9:52 PM On your middle end turns you are pulling his head away before you get to the turn. You have to run up there square just like with a barrel turn and he could probably get that end turn a little eaiser. When you take his head away you are putting him in a position where there is no possible way for him to make a nice turn. He has to run by a stride before he can begin the turn when you take his head away. In the video where you say your middle turn is nice you'll notice you didn't pull his head away like in the other videos. Maybe it's just the camera angle in that video, but those poles look short (like not 21 ft apart). But maybe it way just the camera angle.
I have never watched Ken Smith's videos, so I don't know what you (or he) means by sidepassing. But to be fast in poles you have to run forward through them, not go sideways. I learned to pole bend from Ross Carnahan in Indiana. He is a 10+ time AQHA World Champion pole bender. He always said to go forward. Wait to change directions until your knee is just past the pole, sit up in your weave, and go forward.
Here is my pole bending horse from back in the day. He was 17 hands tall, so size does not really make a difference IMO.
https://youtu.be/KYj3vZZOwv4
We always wished we hadn't let him get away. Great, great horse!!
OK, that looked like Sue in the video. My bad. But, The Flying Bug is/was an awesome horse!! I loved that horse. I've been pretty good friends with Ross for over 40 years. Awesome horse trainer, horseman and even better person. I was always a flag racer first and foremost but dabbled in poles. My wife loves pole bending more than any other event. She's run more 19's than we can keep up with. I never ran a 19. Even on her horses. My best qualified run was a 20.1.
You may not have known that back in the day Ross was a flag racer first. And he was every bit as good at that as he became in poles. |
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