|
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
 
Location: Loma Linda, CA | Okay, so my friends/partners are slowly getting started into the breeding game.
We have a few mares we are interested in using, wrote up a business plan and are getting the LLC.
We are looking at a stud prospect we really like, he is a weanling, but the whole "what if" game I am very well aware of. What if something happens? What if he doesn't pan out? etc.
I like raising the babies and don't mind the time it takes for them to grow. I'm in school to be a vet - woot! I figure by the time I'm done he will be ready or we will know if it won't pan out.
Okay, I digress.
So I also am aware that the lines people breed to change, this guy is Special Effort, Bully Bullion, Shawne Bug, Easy Jet etc.
And... he's a paint! Tobiano and potentially homozygous Love it. We are looking to breed paints. And I'm going in knowing that paints aren't as popular as the quarter horse, but he does have a lot of QH influence... maybe half his pedigree is QH?
The goal is for a well-rounded rodeo horse. He will be shown in barrels and also roped off of. And potentially futuritied - depending on where he is at when he is 4.
So assuming he is a fantastic rodeo horse (my goal is the California circuit, no NFR dreams here) & he grows into really great confirmation, good mind, etc is this a guy people would consider to breed to?
What do people look for when they pick out their studs?
And also - futurity nominating for his foals - how do I go about it?
Which ones are the most popular, links?
Thanks in advance. :)
Edited by Phxbarrel 2015-09-20 3:50 PM
| |
| | |
 Heeler Hoarder
Posts: 2067
| No I wont breed to a paint, simply because their is no market for them really. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
Location: Loma Linda, CA | They are definitely a niche breed. | |
| | |
 I'm Really Boring
Posts: 4505
| Based on the bloodlines you posted, no. Horses with those names in their pedigree are a dime a dozen and in my opinion, that's not nearly strong enough breeding for a stud prospect. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
Location: Loma Linda, CA | That's the hard thing - all the lines are kinda saturated.
I feel like there is always good studs out of the good names these days.
Here in CA (and really everywhere) it's all about Dash Ta Fame, Frenchmans Guy and I see some Jet horses in there too.
Lots of cow breds too. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1611
Location: bring on the heat, NV | Future Fortunes, triplecrown, vgbra, red desert classic, PBRIP
Have you considered looking into a double registered AQHA/ APHA running bred colt? You have to look but if you were patient you could find a OTT with some chrome that could swing both ways. So you wouldnt loose out on being AQHA. You have to loose the HZ part probably but if you kept an eye out and developed slowly you could net you some HZ mares that would open the pool even farther. Just a thought. I think though we havent seen your colt its going to be tough. You ve got a lot to compete against in CA. I am a paint person to but like you said its a niche market and there are many who wont give APHA papers a second glance.
| |
| | |
Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | If I wanted to breed paints I would stand a nice qtr stallion and try to get homozygous mares | |
| | |
 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | moapajetrider - 2015-09-20 6:28 PM
Future Fortunes, triplecrown, vgbra, red desert classic, PBRIP
Have you considered looking into a double registered AQHA/ APHA running bred colt? You have to look but if you were patient you could find a OTT with some chrome that could swing both ways. So you wouldnt loose out on being AQHA. You have to loose the HZ part probably but if you kept an eye out and developed slowly you could net you some HZ mares that would open the pool even farther. Just a thought. I think though we havent seen your colt its going to be tough. You ve got a lot to compete against in CA. I am a paint person to but like you said its a niche market and there are many who wont give APHA papers a second glance.
I know nothing about breeding, so this prob isn't worth much......But to me a nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of color or breed. | |
| | |
Expert
Posts: 3300
| i dont live far from you.... its hard out here haha... | |
| | |
| Concentrate on becoming a vet and in your spare time read the entire hard copy of the APHA RULE BOOK .. and you will see why no one is remaining in the paint breeding business with all of their innuendo's of color, no color, amount of stud fees to compete in halter against each other ... the ones running APHA for the past 15 years came from the appy club after they destroyed it and are in the process of doing the same at APHA ..
Even if you have two colored sire and dam you will get at least 37% solid colored foals which have absolutely no market in racing or eventing in APHA controlled events ...
At the track .. paints can't muster a 10 horse field anymore which affects their purses so no one is breeding for them anymore ... paint horses that win 50k or more would have won 300k in the same level of races if they had been running as qh's ... yep .. this is how bad owning a paint has gotten ...
APHA sez they strive for color .. yet there are 4 crop out qh in the top 5 racing sires and the only true paint is Judys Lineage who was retired last year from stud duties ...
Read the rule book and you will run for cover from owning a paint breeding operation even before you get half way thru it ... lol
Here are the bloodlines of a very successful paint stallion you will be competing against and I guarantee you that there is no line of mares waiting at his breeding barn ... due to APHA antics with their rule books ... they are like Obama .. some kind of drama everyday ... which a breeder cannot exist in that environment ..
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/crm+livewire
Find you 3-4 well bred paint stallions with DTF, FWF, FG or racing lines and call APHA and ask how many registered foals each have had for 2012, 2013 and 2014 ... take notes on each stallion and don't fall out of your chair on how few babies they have produced ... ..
APHA has become the EPA of the horse associations ... always some new rule coming from hidden sources behind closed closet doors ... lol
Better yet ... buy this fantastic 2013 solid bred paint barrel gelding with a ton of famous speed and barrel horse families in his pedigree including his dam as a direct daughter of Dash For Perks .. owner is in a new job and does not have time to continue to train this guy ... he has been well cared for and has no vices etc etc ... $3k will buy him ... after you season him ... go try to enter at APHA shows to earn some points and see where that gets you .. even tho you have been winning 1D races anywhere you have ran... thank God for barrel associations so solid bred paints are not discriminated against ... PM me if you are interested to see the pedigree ...
and read the APHA RULE BOOK!!
| |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
Location: Loma Linda, CA | So, in-between studying (I've been at it since 11am, it's still 2am and I have a test at 12:30 pm! Ughhh)
I went ahead and skimmed the APHA rule book. I skimmed because a lot of it doesn't apply to what I want to do. I have no interest in halter, racing or showing in general.
Nor do I really care for showing in breed specific classes (APHA barrel racing/pole bending). I mean maybe? But most likely not.
I have a solid paint dun filly and I think she just goes into the solid stock registry aspect of APHA if I read correctly.
Also two colored parents doesn't necessarily equate to a 37% chance. It depends on if the color is homozygous or heterozygous.
The guy I'm looking at is most likely homozygous for the tobiano gene so he will always throw tobiano foals.
I think an NFR girl was riding a bay paint horse at a race too so that was cool. I know nothing about racing so have no comment on your statements.
I went ahead and did a search on paints on the forum and almost everyone of them you have responded with just about the same thing. I feel like you have a vendetta against APHA?
I know Lazy Susan Ranch has a FWF and DTF paint stud and then Lonestar performance horses has some nice studs too with FG, DFC and a few other names.
I'd say that if nobody was breeding or buying then they wouldn't have their programs.
I know for me, my best horses have been paints. I had a little bay gelding that I absolutely loved and now my solid paint filly who is FG and Three Ohs and has one of the best minds ever.
My take on it is that if you're out there crushing it and making a name for yourself with your horses there is that potential of people wanting to breed.
I've asked some local friends and barrel racers if they'd be interested in him in a few years with the assumption he is a great barrel horse and such. And I've had mixed, but more on the positive side, answers.
However, since BHW has a wide range of people all over the place I decided to get some feed back too!
And so far just because he's paint the feedback is more negative, however, I'd still like feedback on how you pick your studs?
Edited by Phxbarrel 2015-09-21 4:30 AM
| |
| | |
 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| As a mare owner, I look at resale value of the foal. And honestly, I just haven't seen decent enough resale on Paints to justify breeding to one. I also think that even in riding horses the value isn't there, so will pass over them when shopping for prospects. I'm not saying they can't compete or aren't nice, but from a business standpoint I'm better off to focus on QHs in our program.
As far as the bloodlines go that you mentioned, those stallions are in so many pedigrees because they are older lines. They are a dime a dozen. I would want to know who his sire and dam are and what they've done.
Standing a stallion is an uphill battle, and he better be the complete package or you're wasting your time. Do your research on foal prices/values, get good figures on what it will cost in mare care for a year and to get that foal raised to weaning. And you better figure the cost of raising/starting one in case you are unable to sell prior to that. Look at the cost of nice broodmares, not just mediocre ones. I would want to know all of these figures and make sure that I can cover my expenses. It's going to cost a lot of money to get your stud prospect trained, shown, and promoted. And then you're going to have to start proving his offspring.
I wish you the best of luck in your adventure. But remember to look at it from a business standpoint, leave the sentimental out. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Jenbabe - 2015-09-21 7:10 AM
As a mare owner, I look at resale value of the foal. And honestly, I just haven't seen decent enough resale on Paints to justify breeding to one. I also think that even in riding horses the value isn't there, so will pass over them when shopping for prospects. I'm not saying they can't compete or aren't nice, but from a business standpoint I'm better off to focus on QHs in our program.
As far as the bloodlines go that you mentioned, those stallions are in so many pedigrees because they are older lines. They are a dime a dozen. I would want to know who his sire and dam are and what they've done.
Standing a stallion is an uphill battle, and he better be the complete package or you're wasting your time. Do your research on foal prices/values, get good figures on what it will cost in mare care for a year and to get that foal raised to weaning. And you better figure the cost of raising/starting one in case you are unable to sell prior to that. Look at the cost of nice broodmares, not just mediocre ones. I would want to know all of these figures and make sure that I can cover my expenses. It's going to cost a lot of money to get your stud prospect trained, shown, and promoted. And then you're going to have to start proving his offspring.
I wish you the best of luck in your adventure. But remember to look at it from a business standpoint, leave the sentimental out.
What she said | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Honestly, you have gotten GOOD advice on here. It may not be what you WANT to hear, but is probably what you NEED to hear. The markets for paints is small, very small. The market for paint barrel horses is even smaller. Whether or not you agree with BHWUSA (and usually I'm inclined to at least question him), I have to side with him on this matter. Whether you buy that this is because of the new 'color' rules as he says or just because there was never much of a market doesn't matter. There just isn't much of a market. Your top race bred paints are not getting any kind of solid business because there is no market. Many of them are actually AQHA that ended up as splash paints. A good example is Awesome Chrome, an own son of First Down Dash and full brother to Okey Dokey Dale. He has a winning record as a performer AND a sire, both of race horses AND barrel horses, and they still don't fill his book. If a proven own son of First Down Dash can't stay busy, a local grandson of a few well known names is going to struggle even more. If they paint out, you will struggle to get $2000-$3000 for your foals (and if they don't paint out $1000-$2000 is more like it) and even with a $500-750 breeding fee will breed very few mares a year. If you do nothing but keep them on pasture and pasture breed, you'll save a bit on vet but your profit margin will still be very small. If you are content with this, breed on.
I am trying to get my own stud prospect bred too. But he will be an own son of DTF out of my own daughter of Shawne Bug with a very strong bottom side (she's carrying him now and yes, I've had it sexed). I've already got the three siblings before him lined up to be proven (either because I'm proving them or getting them into a home that is committed to proving them). I saw in a post on facebook that there are 67 registered stallion sons of DTF. That is a TON of competition. And there are a number of great ones like Eddie Stinson, Streaking ta Fame, and FM Radio plus up and comers like Feel the Sting to compete with. Most people would think I was mad to even consider it. I do have a very specific plan but this stud colt is going to have to EARN the right to be a stallion and not just by doing some stuff locally. And this is an AQHA stud prospect I'm thinking about who is an OWN SON of the top barrel sire and out of an OWN DAUGHTER of one of the most proven broodmare lines out there with a very strong bottom side on the dam and some very nice older brothers and sisters showing promise. And if he turns into a nice 1D horse and doesn't do any more, he'll probably be a very nice gelding sitting in the corner of my barn because 1D sons of DTF are a dime a dozen. Mine HAS to stand out. And I have a Ph.D. and very solid job and my husband has a law degree. We are both professionals with solid incomes to back up these dreams. It takes a lot of time and money to prove an excellent prospect. We don't plan on seeing ANY breeding money from him until he is likely 6-7 and then only a bit. You are talking about doing less to prove yours with only a decent prospect and having even less market. Seriously, I think a paint stud WOULD HAVE to make the NFR or do something similar for people to take much notice and you've already denied you have those nation wide goals. Honestly, if you are not going to aim that high and do it with the right level of prospect, I think you are wasting your time.
And I am NOT prejudiced against paints. I grew up riding them and actually bred a nice mare to Awesome Chrome. A nice horse is a nice horse like a previous poster said. I think they have every bit as much promise to win as quarter horses in the right hands and given the right opportunities. I will buy a nice one for myself in a heartbeat, but I won't breed them. It's just not the best business decision.
All that being said, if you forge on ahead and prove us all wrong, because weirder things have happened. Do come back and tell us "I told you so" and we will all cheer you on. Just be very very careful before you do, absolutely EYES WIDE WIDE OPEN not just open. | |
| | |
 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | It is an uphill battle. I have a stallion that I believe in and he's very versatile. BUT... he's not proven nor do I have the funds or time to truly let him live up to his potential. I have 2 nice mares I have in foal to him and a few local people have bred their mares to him for potential jr rodeo horses as their kids get older... We have tossed around the idea of gelding him, selling him, etc. As far as bloodlines go... the DTF, FG, SB lines are all saturating the market. Yes, there are a good number that are winning, but it definitely is quantity over quality. My guy has older running lines and my mares are Lone Drifter/Sun Frost and Blue Valentine/Hancock. It really truly depends on the direction you envision for your program. I wish you the best of luck. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1591
Location: East Texas | You mentioned Lazy Susan Ranch and their program, I know the manager well, and they have sought out the BEST paint broodmares and bought the BEST paint studs out there. They want own sons of great QH stallions to stand, not grand get.
I dont breed paints, but I do have a small herd of 8 QH broodmares and I can say this, I plan on having my own stud eventually, however, it will not be a DTF, FWF or FG son. There are too many of them, the barrel racing world needs good outcross stallions. So that everyone can breed their DTF, FWF, and FG daughters to them. I had the perfect outcross stud colt and he died at the colt starters this past summer. I have a stud colt by A Regal Choice out of a Shawne Bug daughter, that if he ends up staying, I might keep him a stud to see what he does, I also have a Shawne Bug daughter in foal to Stoli, same thing goes for that baby if its a boy. My point is, look at Lazy Susan and see that their stallions are all by great QH studs. I feel to be marketbale in the paint industry, you need an exceptional stud, on paper and in person.
| |
| | |
 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I regretfully agree with most of these postings... I would love to own a paint. But the market is small, even for buying. Which in a way could play into your favor if there are enough people like me who have been paint shopping. However, I do think there is a reason it isnt a big market. However, I will also say Strait Firewater stood here in MN and many non-paint people loved him and bred to him. He was a hot ticket up here. He was proven and a nice horse with good bloodlines. So if the horse is good enough, you can "turn" some non-paint people. It is just more risky. A lot of AQHA dont like the mere risk of color with a paint, too much white... medicine hat, etc.
It might be different too in other parts of the country but AQHA speed events are non-existent up here. So that isnt much of a factor. | |
| | |
Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| NoGutsNoGlory - 2015-09-21 11:12 AM
You mentioned Lazy Susan Ranch and their program, I know the manager well, and they have sought out the BEST paint broodmares and bought the BEST paint studs out there. They want own sons of great QH stallions to stand, not grand get.
I dont breed paints, but I do have a small herd of 8 QH broodmares and I can say this, I plan on having my own stud eventually, however, it will not be a DTF, FWF or FG son. There are too many of them, the barrel racing world needs good outcross stallions. So that everyone can breed their DTF, FWF, and FG daughters to them. I had the perfect outcross stud colt and he died at the colt starters this past summer. I have a stud colt by A Regal Choice out of a Shawne Bug daughter, that if he ends up staying, I might keep him a stud to see what he does, I also have a Shawne Bug daughter in foal to Stoli, same thing goes for that baby if its a boy. My point is, look at Lazy Susan and see that their stallions are all by great QH studs. I feel to be marketbale in the paint industry, you need an exceptional stud, on paper and in person.
Excellent points. I especially agree with avoiding some of the prominent lines such as DTF, FG, and FWF. And don't forget how important the dam's side is. | |
| | |
  The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | I haven't read all of the replies so tha tmay have been said already. BUT, just because you have a horse that is homozygous for tobiano, that does NOT guarantee you a foal that has enough white for "regular papers". (SO it will be registered as solid paint bred. It would have the tobiano GENE, but not necessarily enough white for regular papers.) | |
| | |
 A Barrel Of Monkeys
Posts: 12972
Location: Texas | A few years ago, I bred and raised a few babies every year using my own stallion. His pedigree was awesome, full of black type, but he was unknown, and the babies didn't sell. The babies are now in the right hands and making good horses but by now, I'm not sure my old stud is even still alive.
I think the smartest thing when breeding is to have good mares, and pick very marketable stallions. It costs more, but the return on your investment will be much higher. | |
| |
| |
Folks on-line