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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| This is going to be quite the timeline so if you could please bear with me and give me suggestions it would be SO APPRECIATED. I shortened it as much as I could but if you don't feel like reading it all, the main points are in red plus the paragraphs at the bottom.
Gelding, 8y/o, no previous lameness issues, not ridden a ton.
Lameness started Mid-April, vaccinated, then slightly off in the RF but worked out of it. Trimmed a few days later (not reg farrier) came up EXTREMELY lame in both fronts. Could hardly walk. Buted and gave time to grow out.
Two weeks no improvement, guy we've used before trimmed him. Marked improvement. Moved him home from the place I board and gave more time off. Treated w/ tetracycline for 7 days just in case, thought we noticed he got a little perkier. Trimmed/shod by our regular farrier and was sound shortly after.
Mid-June - went to two barrel races, did great.
Mid-July pulled up lame again on RF, head bobbing 2/5. Went to well-known lameness expert on 7/20. Everything negative except for tiny rxn on RF frog to the hoof testers, but only reacted once. Blocked the coffin joint and was sound. General diagnosis of inflamed coffin joint.
Injected w/ cortisone and HA and said I could ride in a couple days. No improvement. Second appt 7/28. No finding on US and x-rays except for a possible very, very slight navicular change. Told to put on bar shoes/pads and also treat with Bute for 10 days.
Mid-August, sound again and went to a barrel race end of August and pulled a check, then to another beginning of Sept and ran fine.
Pretty much sound (maybe an off step now and then? Was worked pretty hard between here, also got reshod with natural balance like shoes and another pour in pad) between Mid-Sept up until Oct. 7th.
Hauled to a friends house to get teeth done (same vet we've always used). Came out next day to take him to chiro appt to find him incredibly lame (both fronts) and body sore. Chiro adjusted him and he was better as far as body soreness but not sound by any means. Started treatment with tetracycline again and am still treating him.
Given a week off, bute/previcox, put on hay only and he's gotten better, rode him yesterday and couldn't tell if he was happy to be out of the barn and just swinging his head or if he was actually lame. If he was lame, he didn't show it on the hard packed gravel when we trotted at the end of our ride. Took him out today and lunged in a circle to the right and he's slightly lame in his RF again. Didn't bother to hop on and see if he works out of it.
If you made it this far, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm at a loss as to what to do. We tested him for insulin resistance as a lot of the symptoms matched (flare-ups of laminitis/neuritis after stressful events, poor energy, lack of topline and others), results were glucose 107, normal is 54-118, and insulin 6.6, normal is 1-10.
Also tested thyroid and his T3 came back low, with his T4 in the lower normal range. Sent his PSSM test off today.
Other than that, I don't know what to do. Going to order thyroid medicine and retest for IR at a bigger lab.
What else could I check for if these definitively come back negative? What would cause low thyroid? I'm sure I left something out or something doesn't make sense so please let me know... Feel free to ask questions. I just want to have a sound, happy pony and it's been a never-ending battle all summer...
Edited by WiscoRacer 2016-12-01 12:57 PM
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 Firecracker Dog Lover
Posts: 3175
   
| Tendon injury? | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| PSSM
EPM
Deep Digital Flexor Tendon
Sounds a lot like a mare that I fought injuries, sickness and ovaries for 9 years. We suspected she had PSSM and a change in feed DID show improvement and the possibility explain a lot with her. SHe only ever tied up once and that was when she was 8 or 9.
Good Luck!!!
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| If you test for epm and lyme disease. Dr. Ellerson in florida. | |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | I also have one that was presenting with all kinds of strange symptoms. She was high on EPM even though no classic neuro signs. Then when she didn't get better we did a bone scan. To my great surprise they found a suspensory injury. The horse was never lame in the usual sense.
I hope you get some answers soon. It is so frustrating and expensive. I think my horse is finally okay again. I was off her for almost 18 months!!! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| We suspected possible Lyme which is why we treated with tetracycline. A possibility but what are the odds he'd get it twice in one summer?
Didn't suspect EPM as his balance and stability in the hind end is fine, but if we get down to it I'll test just in case.
As far as tendon injuries, we did have his tendons ultrasounded and nothing showed up. Maybe need an MRI as a next step.
We were thinking something more systemic/metabolic, as he would be fine one day and lame the next. Just strange. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Something that's pretty rare, but does happen. Have one of your experts try to spread the heels with the hoof testers. If you can visibly spread them, the frog is no longer attached to the bars and cannot prevent over-expansion of the heels. This will cause pain at intermittent times. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | Just a thought, but it looks like a lot of the lameness shows up after he's had a shot of some type of another. Could there be something in the vaccines or sedatives that would cause a reaction? Long shot, I know. But, that's what kinda stood out to me as I was reading it. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I have know horses that have went sound with time off, then lame when exercised, both I know of had infected navicular bursa sacs. These can get infected if the horse pulls a shoe and steps on it.
If it is a navicular bursa sac, they will test positive on the frog with hoof testers, and I can't remember the specific xray to request.
Also what X-rays have been done? And what type of machine? Not all xray machines are created equal, I had one X-rays machine and a vet miss a spiral fracture.
Also caudal heel pain can cause frogs to react, generally will react in the heel area too, but not always. Caudal heel pain can be caused by improper shoeing, where the farrier is putting on too small of shoes causing contracted heels, I see so many horses with contracted heels it makes me want to cry. I had two ended up with contracted heels, this is why I quit shoeing
Laminitis can be caused from sugar, concussion, excess water, and stress. Laminitis can occur if the hind gut is not functioning properly. With the stall rest, and improvement after putting on hay, this could be a possibility. What is his pedal pulse like when he is lame? Also what do the X-rays show? Have you xrayed the foot?
Also how is the horse landing when he walks, heel first or toe first?
These are just other additions to what everyone else has said | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
| if your vet has a lameness locator or if you can find one around you that has one I would try that route first-I have been batteling some lameness isues for 2 years and one by one we have been fixing stuff but I just have not been able to get my horse quite right I use 2 vets whom I love and highly respect and have also taken my guy to a " big to do" equine hospital -and nobody has caught what we found just today using the lameness locator and a fresh set of vet eyes- it totally appeared to be right hind to the naked eye- but he was actually lame on left hind and right front . I pray you find it through the wisdom and guidance of The Lord (he knows) and will help you get there, I totally understand your pain! so be encouraged and don't give up but take time to relax pray and let God lead you as to where to take your horse>
blessings upon you both | |
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | did you xray both feet to make sure all angles are correct? Sometimes ultrasounds cannot find a tendon injury. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Post pics of feet | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | More info on the X-rays and where taken. Is your vet an equine lameness vet? How much are you willing to spend? Standing MRI?
PSSM - simple hair test - $40 to rule this out.
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| cheryl makofka - 2015-10-15 9:25 PM
I have know horses that have went sound with time off, then lame when exercised, both I know of had infected navicular bursa sacs. These can get infected if the horse pulls a shoe and steps on it.
If it is a navicular bursa sac, they will test positive on the frog with hoof testers, and I can't remember the specific xray to request.
Also what X-rays have been done? And what type of machine? Not all xray machines are created equal, I had one X-rays machine and a vet miss a spiral fracture.
Also caudal heel pain can cause frogs to react, generally will react in the heel area too, but not always. Caudal heel pain can be caused by improper shoeing, where the farrier is putting on too small of shoes causing contracted heels, I see so many horses with contracted heels it makes me want to cry. I had two ended up with contracted heels, this is why I quit shoeing
Laminitis can be caused from sugar, concussion, excess water, and stress. Laminitis can occur if the hind gut is not functioning properly. With the stall rest, and improvement after putting on hay, this could be a possibility. What is his pedal pulse like when he is lame? Also what do the X-rays show? Have you xrayed the foot?
Also how is the horse landing when he walks, heel first or toe first?
These are just other additions to what everyone else has said
I agree with this. Lyme's will show up on bloodwork since it's bacterial....did you have a CBC/CHEM run on him? EPM will not affect front end....
Blocking sound to the coffin can also sometimes cause the bursa to block too....so you do need to isolate one or the other. DDDFT injuries can also block sound to coffin joint blocks I believe
I would get a bone scan on this horse....about 1200 bucks for full body but you will be able to see what is really bothering him
Next step after than would be MRI if it's determined it may be soft tissue.
How close are you to River Falls? Bob Racich is an excellent vet and a wizard at figuring out these types of lamenesses.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| Thank you for all the replies! We took him to Anoka Equine, so yes the vet is definitely a lameness vet. All the standard X-rays have been done on both feet, including the skyline view to look at the navicular. X-rays showed next to nothing along with the ultrasound but if I can find the disc of the photos I'll post them. MRI is a next step if I don't get other ideas before this - I think the U of M has a standing MRI but I'd need to confirm this.
We're not thinking something in the vaccine or sedative necessarily, but something metabolic and when he gets these types of injections it stresses his system and he has a lameness flare up.
This horse has very well balanced feet, no contracted heels or low heels and he had no shoes on the entire winter. Very correct hooves. He lands heel first when he walks. I'll see if I have pics of his feet, I know I have them when he was first "trimmed" (I use that term lightly as his feet looked terrible) and I can run to the barn and snap some more pics of them now.
His PSSM test was sent off yesterday.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| lopnaround - 2015-10-16 10:31 AM
cheryl makofka - 2015-10-15 9:25 PM
I have know horses that have went sound with time off, then lame when exercised, both I know of had infected navicular bursa sacs. These can get infected if the horse pulls a shoe and steps on it.
If it is a navicular bursa sac, they will test positive on the frog with hoof testers, and I can't remember the specific xray to request.
Also what X-rays have been done? And what type of machine? Not all xray machines are created equal, I had one X-rays machine and a vet miss a spiral fracture.
Also caudal heel pain can cause frogs to react, generally will react in the heel area too, but not always. Caudal heel pain can be caused by improper shoeing, where the farrier is putting on too small of shoes causing contracted heels, I see so many horses with contracted heels it makes me want to cry. I had two ended up with contracted heels, this is why I quit shoeing
Laminitis can be caused from sugar, concussion, excess water, and stress. Laminitis can occur if the hind gut is not functioning properly. With the stall rest, and improvement after putting on hay, this could be a possibility. What is his pedal pulse like when he is lame? Also what do the X-rays show? Have you xrayed the foot?
Also how is the horse landing when he walks, heel first or toe first?
These are just other additions to what everyone else has said
I agree with this. Lyme's will show up on bloodwork since it's bacterial....did you have a CBC/CHEM run on him? EPM will not affect front end....
Blocking sound to the coffin can also sometimes cause the bursa to block too....so you do need to isolate one or the other. DDDFT injuries can also block sound to coffin joint blocks I believe
I would get a bone scan on this horse....about 1200 bucks for full body but you will be able to see what is really bothering him
Next step after than would be MRI if it's determined it may be soft tissue.
How close are you to River Falls? Bob Racich is an excellent vet and a wizard at figuring out these types of lamenesses.
I live in River Falls so either he or the U of M is next on the list to go to. He's been treated for Lyme twice so I don't think that's it. Had a complete work-up of his blood and all came back completely normal. Thank you, I think MRI or bone scan will be the next step. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
| I dont know where you are located. My only advice is to go to either Weatherford to Dr.Hand or to Elgin and see some of the best diagnotic vets in the country. | |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | So the only reason I mention this is because of the occurance that he was lame after he had his teeth done is you need to have someone look at his back-does he get back sore easy?? I know nothing about kissing spine-but there is something that bugs me about him having his teeth done and then him being lame...spine, neck, even jaw issue?? Do you have to regularly chiro him?? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| WiscoRacer - 2015-10-16 10:35 AM lopnaround - 2015-10-16 10:31 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-10-15 9:25 PM I have know horses that have went sound with time off, then lame when exercised, both I know of had infected navicular bursa sacs. These can get infected if the horse pulls a shoe and steps on it. If it is a navicular bursa sac, they will test positive on the frog with hoof testers, and I can't remember the specific xray to request. Also what X-rays have been done? And what type of machine? Not all xray machines are created equal, I had one X-rays machine and a vet miss a spiral fracture. Also caudal heel pain can cause frogs to react, generally will react in the heel area too, but not always. Caudal heel pain can be caused by improper shoeing, where the farrier is putting on too small of shoes causing contracted heels, I see so many horses with contracted heels it makes me want to cry. I had two ended up with contracted heels, this is why I quit shoeing Laminitis can be caused from sugar, concussion, excess water, and stress. Laminitis can occur if the hind gut is not functioning properly. With the stall rest, and improvement after putting on hay, this could be a possibility. What is his pedal pulse like when he is lame? Also what do the X-rays show? Have you xrayed the foot? Also how is the horse landing when he walks, heel first or toe first? These are just other additions to what everyone else has said I agree with this. Lyme's will show up on bloodwork since it's bacterial....did you have a CBC/CHEM run on him? EPM will not affect front end.... Blocking sound to the coffin can also sometimes cause the bursa to block too....so you do need to isolate one or the other. DDDFT injuries can also block sound to coffin joint blocks I believe I would get a bone scan on this horse....about 1200 bucks for full body but you will be able to see what is really bothering him Next step after than would be MRI if it's determined it may be soft tissue. How close are you to River Falls? Bob Racich is an excellent vet and a wizard at figuring out these types of lamenesses. I live in River Falls so either he or the U of M is next on the list to go to. He's been treated for Lyme twice so I don't think that's it. Had a complete work-up of his blood and all came back completely normal. Thank you, I think MRI or bone scan will be the next step.
U of M is awesome for internal medicine, but I really trust Bob a lot for lameness. Guy is brilliant and thinks outside the box. Very skilled. Keep us posted, I am intrigued! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| LMS - 2015-10-16 10:51 AM
So the only reason I mention this is because of the occurance that he was lame after he had his teeth done is you need to have someone look at his back-does he get back sore easy?? I know nothing about kissing spine-but there is something that bugs me about him having his teeth done and then him being lame...spine, neck, even jaw issue?? Do you have to regularly chiro him??
Ya know kissing spine has been in the back of my mind since this started. If we do the bone scan we'll know then, I guess. I have him chiroed every 4-6 months depending on how much I've been riding. I have had issues in the past with back soreness but always thought it was due to saddle fit - changed saddles and he got quite a bit better. I'll look into it for sure. | |
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