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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
  
Location: Texas | So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections? | |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
 
| Previcox, bute, any other nsaid. There are herbals to supplement with, and other oral supplements. Devils claw is the herbal I can think of right off the bat, and most other supplements don't work much because of molecular size. There is injectibles (not into the joint, im or iv) but not sure which would help for arthritis, Legend and Adequan.
If expense is the only thing stopping one from getting injections - you will spend more in supplements and bad runs than just getting the injection done. The time it takes to figure out if something is working or not, plus the runs that prove it is expensive. 3 months is minimum to give any protocol a chance. Only the nsaid's are going to work, period, right then. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 1:15 PM
So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections?
Why would you want to go against 3 vets opinion?
Problem with everything, is you only mask the issue, previcoxx, I was reading in a pharmacology text, (got a new one cause I am a nerd) it says at higher doses previcoxx will inhibit both cox 1 and 2 therefore causing ulcers. The text said any NSAID at high doses will inhibit both cox 1-2 and cause ulcers. We are talking the high dose of normal, not insanely high.
Hocks, I actually don't inject, I fuse by surgical laser, then I never have to think of them again, I believe dr Honas does them for 2500, and he is the coauthor/researcher for the surgical laser fusion, so he would be the best in the states.
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I'm not against injections when they are needed. I'm against people giving their horses injections with out making sure what the problem is.
I had a horse blowing off of barrels and what he needed was an adjustment and massage body work.
Drives me nuts when people are injecting joints and calling it maintenance on young horses. JMO
I do know from personal experience, how well the joint injections can relive pain.
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-10-19 6:33 PM outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 1:15 PM So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections? Why would you want to go against 3 vets opinion? Problem with everything, is you only mask the issue, previcoxx, I was reading in a pharmacology text, (got a new one cause I am a nerd ) it says at higher doses previcoxx will inhibit both cox 1 and 2 therefore causing ulcers. The text said any NSAID at high doses will inhibit both cox 1-2 and cause ulcers. We are talking the high dose of normal, not insanely high. Hocks, I actually don't inject, I fuse by surgical laser, then I never have to think of them again, I believe dr Honas does them for 2500, and he is the coauthor/researcher for the surgical laser fusion, so he would be the best in the states.
Im just being hypothetical. If that was my case I would inject.
I just know there are people out there who simply refuse to inject for whatever reason and I was just curious how they handled a situation like that. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Nevertooold - 2015-10-19 8:10 PM I'm not against injections when they are needed. I'm against people giving their horses injections with out making sure what the problem is.
I had a horse blowing off of barrels and what he needed was an adjustment and massage body work.
Drives me nuts when people are injecting joints and calling it maintenance on young horses. JMO
I do know from personal experience, how well the joint injections can relive pain.
 ditto | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2015-10-19 8:17 PM Nevertooold - 2015-10-19 8:10 PM I'm not against injections when they are needed. I'm against people giving their horses injections with out making sure what the problem is.
I had a horse blowing off of barrels and what he needed was an adjustment and massage body work.
Drives me nuts when people are injecting joints and calling it maintenance on young horses. JMO
I do know from personal experience, how well the joint injections can relive pain.
ditto
Double Ditto  | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| cheryl makofka - 2015-10-19 6:33 PM
outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 1:15 PM
So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections?
Why would you want to go against 3 vets opinion?
Problem with everything, is you only mask the issue, previcoxx, I was reading in a pharmacology text, (got a new one cause I am a nerd ) it says at higher doses previcoxx will inhibit both cox 1 and 2 therefore causing ulcers. The text said any NSAID at high doses will inhibit both cox 1-2 and cause ulcers. We are talking the high dose of normal, not insanely high.
Hocks, I actually don't inject, I fuse by surgical laser, then I never have to think of them again, I believe dr Honas does them for 2500, and he is the coauthor/researcher for the surgical laser fusion, so he would be the best in the states.
Dr Honnas doesn't do them. He refers them to Dr Hague in Edmond, Ok. I am currently 14 months out and waiting for soundness to return to one that I had fused. I don't regret doing it, I didn't have a horse either way, and he should eventually come sound again. Hypothetically and optimistically, best case scenario. But it isn't always a peaches and cream surgery. Everyone needs to go into that with their eyes open, for sure. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 8:53 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-10-19 6:33 PM outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 1:15 PM So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections? Why would you want to go against 3 vets opinion? Problem with everything, is you only mask the issue, previcoxx, I was reading in a pharmacology text, (got a new one cause I am a nerd ) it says at higher doses previcoxx will inhibit both cox 1 and 2 therefore causing ulcers. The text said any NSAID at high doses will inhibit both cox 1-2 and cause ulcers. We are talking the high dose of normal, not insanely high. Hocks, I actually don't inject, I fuse by surgical laser, then I never have to think of them again, I believe dr Honas does them for 2500, and he is the coauthor/researcher for the surgical laser fusion, so he would be the best in the states.
I just know there are people out there who simply refuse to inject for whatever reason and I was just curious how they handled a situation like that.
Here's how I see it. This is blunt honesty, take it for what it is - my opinion.
If you won't inject after 3 vets tell you they need it but just try to go the easy way out to run them anyway, you're an a$$hole who doesn't deserve the horse you are ruining.
I'm not talking about those who inject for the heck of it before having any diagnostics done, I mean when the horse legit needs those injections, and the owner refuses because they are too cheap or too stupid to get them done while running a lame horse into the ground, then they are not going to stay on my good side very long, and I cannot promise my actions won't reflect that.
I'm also using 'you' as a hypothetical. This is not directed at anyone in particular right now, but I guess if the shoe fits..... | |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | I will inject. However, you have Autologous Conditioned Serum, Shockwave and PEMF that could be tried. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 336
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Was injecting my horses hocks every 2 months,,,started him on previcox and pentosan and he doesn't need inject, anymore,,,and he has arthritis
Good Luck!1 | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1161
| My horse has navicular and many other joint problem shocks included did one set of hock injections last 6 months. New vet recommended adequin started doing that every 6 weeks no problems. He got his shot lay one time and he was sore I do know he needs his adequin... | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Personally I'm not against injecting but there are certainly a few things you can do to prolong time between injections and things people will do to avoid them. A first line of defense would be rest and regular icing. Some people like oral joint supplements (personally I don't feed these though I've tried a couple). Better are injectable joint supplements like Adequan, Pentosan, and Legend. Now people also have Osphos they can try too and Tildren for navicular. NSAIDS are always great for short term, Previcox & Bute. Some people like banamine too. There are also alternative therapies like magnets, acupuncture, massage, chiropractic, lasers, PEMF, and even heat with BOT wraps. There are sometimes shoeing options to help change angles and relieve pressure. Then there are more conservative joint injection options like IRAP and stem cells which rebuild instead of tearing down cartilage. And then of course there are different qualities and types of injections depending on the joint.
All this being considered, I understand that with the number of treatment options that people would want to try the more conservative ones for a while. Sometimes this is a good strategy and sometimes they are best paired with traditional injections, but I do understand. Hubby and I have talked about this quite a bit as we've only recently faced this dilemma with my young mare. We're combining therapies and I can tell you she's been xrayed and lameness checked out the wazoo. She's never actually limped but she's been sore. We tried a number of more conservative options before going with injections. Currently we are combining adequan, magnets, icing, rest, liniment massage, shoeing changes, irap and traditional injections to keep her happy and comfortable. Vet said she was moving very well at our last visit and my farrier has been particularly happy with her new hoof growth as she really likes to grow toe and not much heel. Overall I think we are making great progress but certainly we are using injections. | |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | Exactly what Biblia said. it wouldn't let me quote it!
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 Half-Eaten Cookies
Posts: 2076
Location: Fort Worth / Springtown | I'm a firm believer in raw apple cider vinegar for many things - including arthritis. It's getting harder to find in gallon jugs, so I've started making it.
I've given injections at vet's advice -- but if you are looking for alternatives, I'd definitely try ^^^^ | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-10-19 6:33 PM
outrundaizy - 2015-10-19 1:15 PM
So I know there are some people out there who simply won't inject their horses.. I'm curious, say you have a horse that is blowing off barrels, you take it to the vet, vet says horse needs hocks injected, xrays show signs of arthritis. You take the horse to 2 other vets both with the same outcome. How do you treat this? What are things you do without injections?
Why would you want to go against 3 vets opinion?
Problem with everything, is you only mask the issue, previcoxx, I was reading in a pharmacology text, (got a new one cause I am a nerd ) it says at higher doses previcoxx will inhibit both cox 1 and 2 therefore causing ulcers. The text said any NSAID at high doses will inhibit both cox 1-2 and cause ulcers. We are talking the high dose of normal, not insanely high.
Hocks, I actually don't inject, I fuse by surgical laser, then I never have to think of them again, I believe dr Honas does them for 2500, and he is the coauthor/researcher for the surgical laser fusion, so he would be the best in the states.
Not to mention the renal disease that any NSAID given over time can cause.. no one wants kidney failure. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I have tennis elbow, excruciating tendon pain in my arm and elbow. I do hair all day and come home and clean stalls, cleaning stalls is excruciating BUT I have to do it, just like sore hocks are excruciating, the horse with a big heart HAs to do it. I bear through the pain to get my job done, and so do our horses.
The moral of this story is, I'm going to get a shot of cortisone later this week so I can do my job and not feel any pain. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 865
| RnRJack - 2015-10-20 12:04 PM
I have tennis elbow, excruciating tendon pain in my arm and elbow. I do hair all day and come home and clean stalls, cleaning stalls is excruciating BUT I have to do it, just like sore hocks are excruciating, the horse with a big heart HAs to do it. I bear through the pain to get my job done, and so do our horses.
The moral of this story is, I'm going to get a shot of cortisone later this week so I can do my job and not feel any pain.
I totally agree with you on the cortisone injections. I have a small tear in my rotator cuff. Very painful and they tried to talk me into surgery. Forget that! I opted for injections. I go every 6-8 months and 90% of the pain is gone. So why not do the same for our horses. It's not like you can get them hock surgery to aleve the pain. Of course the joints will only take so many injections so you have to use judgement and not inject too often. JMO | |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | RnRJack - 2015-10-20 12:04 PM
I have tennis elbow, excruciating tendon pain in my arm and elbow. I do hair all day and come home and clean stalls, cleaning stalls is excruciating BUT I have to do it, just like sore hocks are excruciating, the horse with a big heart HAs to do it. I bear through the pain to get my job done, and so do our horses.
The moral of this story is, I'm going to get a shot of cortisone later this week so I can do my job and not feel any pain.
I understand that we have to work to make a living... But if you had an opportunity to rest and rehab that injury, it can heal. Unfortunately, that may not be an option for you.
Back to the original question...
Our horses can benefit a great deal from some down time and rehab. I've often wondered why people take a horse that is sore, go to the vet and spend $500.00+ on x-rays and injections so that they can go to the $35.00 jackpot and win $150.00. That just doesn't make much sense to me.
I'm all about preventative medicine. I will spend extra on things to keep my horses fit and feeling good before I would consider injections. I haven't needed to inject a horse in 15 years and I've not had any issues, knock on wood. I'm certainly not against injections to manage an issue that can't be treated with time off and some rehab, but I believe that injections are far too common these days. They are treated as a cure-all by lots of folks. Vets do them because WE want SOMETHING done. A quick fix so to speak. Problem is... they aren't curing the problem, simply masking it.
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Rest is not an option, no, you're correct but I've been doing everything my doctor has had me do, physical therapy, anti inflammatory medicine, icing etc. it has gotten a little better but it's been months and months and it's really taking a toll on me, I know a tendon in my elbow and hock injections aren't totally relevant but if it's a last option, I would do it to make them comfortable!
I believe in preventative maintainence as well! I'm a big believer in adequen and a few other joint supplements.
Edited by RnRJack 2015-10-20 10:32 PM
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